Flypast (Sep): "Iraqi Fury UK-bound?"

Rant on

I’m sorry mate but this ceased to be a debate that I will take seriously when you used that emotive claptrap “not in my name”

Do I think they should be brought back – Yes

Do I think the Iraqi’s should be paid for them – No we have paid with 50 of our young men’s lives (this year)

Do I think the Iraqi’s care about them – No they care about nothing but themselves

Do I give a toss what they think – In this case no. And I’m sure they couldn’t give a toss either.

At the end of the day, these aircraft are a very unimportant piece if Iraqi history, the birthplace of civilization has lost more important things than a few planes. To us however they are more “important” we would appreciate them more.

They don’t seem to be able to appreciate their freedom and all that entails and seem to want everything handed to them on a plate.

Finally, Should they be kept in Iraqi markings – Yes.

Rant Off

My views on a matter such as this have changed since I was a youngster. I used to be interested in aircraft preservation in it’s own right and not really be too concernned about the ‘bigger picture’. I previously would have salivated at the thought of MORE Furies UK/USA bound.

But over time (getting older – wiser? perhaps) I gradually become aware of the larger, moral issues of the world – and this case is particularly telling for me because it involves my favourite aircraft and a very recent conflict involving our own armed forces.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not preaching to anyone, but just wish to explain how my views have changed.

It’s not often that this gentlemanly forum hosts such a lively thread (personally, I love the debating) and it is obviously indicative of almost polarised views not only on this particular subject – perhaps it reflects the views of the UK populace and beyond on the whole matter of the recent ‘coalition’ (UK & USA) war in Iraq. But I’m encouraged to see in later posts that some who want to bring them out would still like to see them eventually returned to their rightful owners.

Maybe I am missing something but the Fury in question has survived numerous changes of power in Iraq – the curious hands
of the Iraqi Air Force and numerous bombing campaigns by the coalition forces and now we deem that the Iraqi’s arn’t suitable
people to look after them !
The circumstances in which the war was conducted against
Iraq has no parallel with the ‘war prizes’ gained by the U.K in both the First World War and Second . In both cases we were responding to agression from the East and this was repelled at
enourmous cost in both lives and money. The aircraft ,vehicles and ships were gained as reparations for the losses sustained by this country. This was legitamate and legal .
The current situation is that we decided based on the evidence of two dossiers that Iraq posed a threat to the U.K and indeed U.S. Subsequently we are still looking for the WofMD which
were pointing at us and ready to go in fourty five minutes.
This leaves us in the position that we are occupying a country in which we are increasingly not welcome .
If we now decide that Iraq which is governed by a U.S administration is fair game for us to loot at will well what kind of country are we ?
We have no claim to any Furies or Mig’s – these are the property of the Iraqi people and should remain so.
Why should we incur any cost in so called relocating these machines to the U.K for ‘safekeeping’ ? Surely if they have survived the last fifty years there we can just ‘tuck them up’
in a Has – lock the door and let the Iraqi people decide when they want them on display.
We have lost and are continuing to loose British servicemen
in Iraq – do we really need to get ‘trinkets’ so we can show that
their sacrifice enabled us to ‘remove’ items from a demoralised
and ruined country?

Sea Furys?

Best place for them is in the middle of the desert

Or in Hendon of course……:D 😀

Just ask Droptank:D

I think even I would draw the line at using them as a source of spares. If they are removed from Iraq they should be kept intact and certainly repaired and re-painted in Iraqi markings. If the situation in Iraq stabilises in the future then perhaps they could be returned.

Flood – good point about the Mona Lisa, perhaps the Italians want it back:D !

Originally posted by Graeme C

Maybe the TFC could get spares for their fury from iraq?

I wonder if they have a willing volunteer to go after them.

It is amazing how otherwise “civilized” people can casually discuss robbing a devastated country. Whether the spoils are oil, cash, arms, museum exhibits or vintage aircraft, that’s what it is: A ROBBERY!
Safe-keeping my ass!
You should be ashamed of yourselves!

i would be more than happy if the furies went to a UK private colection. At least then they would give the aircraft TLC, more than they were having in irag.

i thought the OFMC fury looked great in its iraqi theme? Maybe the TFC could get spares for their fury from iraq?

I think they do know that they are not inhibited. 😀

What do you think? :p

Does anyone know if the engines were inhibited?

I suspect that the Iraqi Furies were not on public display as such but were within a military area – I may be wrong. I could feel comfortable with them being recovered to a military national museum in the UK for display ‘as is’ unrestored on a custodial basis as probably this is their best chance of survival. This would leave open the doors for their return in more stable times and satisfy our immediate interest to see them.

I would feel most uncomfortable seeing them in private warbird hands. 😡

Mark (champion of ‘Scotish some some glass balls’)

http://www.museum-security.org/elginmarbles.html

The Furies in Iraq are part of Iraq’s history not that of the UK and they should stay in Iraq. If they can be gathered together for there own protection, OK. But it should be up to the new Iraqi to decide they future. Be it scrapped or sold to a ‘collector’.

The aircraft (and armour) of Saddam’s modern airforce are part of the UK history. For what ever reason our country went to war (twice) and as such future generations should be allowed to see what we were fighting against. Maybe the RAF did not shoot down a Mig-25, but I see no reason why we should not have an example recovered from Iraq as a ‘war prize’. Displayed with dignity as a reminded to those, of both sides, who were lost.

DOUGHNUT

What is a small Scotish Town in Morayshire going to do some some glass balls ?

Give back the ‘Elgin Marbles’!

Put them on ebay!

Mark V

Maybe, and your opinion is your opinion and I value it and I respect it (and you!) but I still think it is the wrong example to show the world (I think I could put the Mona Lisa to better use than the Louvre but I expect several million French persons would disagree with that too). But if you think about it thieving imperialist aggression is probably what helped turn former colonies into dictatorships or one man one vote (and I mean just one man!) republics – amongst other things (not that I am saying that a Fury returning to its land of manufacture would be the catalyst that sparks the next revolution, oh no!).
But when our returning troops are being frisked and having things like steel helmets, bath taps, Iraqi army uniform, headed letter-paper, and other curios and knick-knacks confiscated in an effort to discourage the looting of Arabic ‘treasures’ (not to mention the paintings taken from an American reporter or the statue, rocket launcher and gold pistols confiscated from US soldiers) what makes the mortal remains of an old aeroplane any different?
Having read David Burkes bit (curse my phone ringing, and having to take out all the naughty words and correct the spelling and insert punctuation…) I agree with him about the Ethiopian Firefly – in fact I agree with him on everything and needlessly spent my time venting my spleen when I could have left it all to him.

Look forward to the argument for taking the Cuban Sea Furys back because we disagree with their regime! (Wonder what treasures stand guard at airbases in Iran or North Korea. Ho, hum.)

Flood. (You wouldn’t think I have to drive 100-odd miles for a job at 7am, would you? Stupid.)

Fair enough Flood, thats your opinion. I think I am happy that we just take them anyway. I suppose that makes me a thieving imperialist aggressor. Sorry.

“Hey its and old ‘plane – we need it more than they do. They don’t give a damn about old ‘planes, they’d rather have water, food, and fuel. Blah blah blah.”

Duh! The Iraqis did care for it.
They must have since it wasn’t sold off with the others. If it is stolen from Iraq – and it is my personal belief that this is what it should be classified as – then we might as well repossess the contents of their museums (well, those that haven’t been totally looted) because, hell, WE WON and THEY LOST. Everything is ours, as the victors, to plunder. Let’s ravish the women and herd the kids off to mine coal or clean chimneys. We should line the men up, get them to drop their trousers and laugh at their underwear – or use them to test our new electronic cattle prods.
Tsk.
The Fury/s is/are/were museum pieces – in the same way that there used to be lots of Spitfires and Hurricanes rotting away at the gates of RAF bases in Britain. Anyone remember what happened to Spitfire MK732? Stolen from a life as a decoy on a Dutch airfield in the 50s and used by the RAF as a display airframe before becoming a spares source and subsequently the remains were returned to the RNethAF. Yes it probably survived because it was ‘stolen’ but in a court of law it is still theft.
The buried MiGs and Sukhois are probably fair game as war prizes – they represent the regime that was overthrown and there are probably lots of them – but the Furies never flew for Saddam. That said western museums will probably be able to obtain examples from the former eastern European countries much easier and in much better (i.e. not disinterred) condition anyway.
The Pucaras were taken from sovereign British soil. The WWII German and Japanese aircraft were taken as examples of axis technology (and some were taken as reparation – Ju52s for example) and some were tested – not that I can see much of the Iraqi Air Force being in any shape to be tested.
The only precedent that I can think of (concerning aviation museums, not works of art) is that of the Berlin Air Museum, some of the exhibits being evacuated to Poland in 1943 to avoid destruction. I can well understand why the Poles would not be well disposed to the Germans to return these airframes after the war but we, on the other hand, did not suffer at the hands of the Iraqi people; Saddams troops put up so little resistance that it has to be obvious to all but the most blood thirsty adrenaline junky (or maybe the odd politician) that the people didn’t care for their leader and few deliberately laid down their lives for him. We did not overthrow a nationally popular figurehead as was done in the war against Hitler, nor did we overthrow a living god as was done in the war against Japan; we overthrew a despot who was at best tolerated by most of his people (well, those that didn’t have explosives strapped to their bodies and blown up for fun, or gassed, or buried alive, or fed to his private zoo, or shot for target practise, etc) and they should not be treated as though their views do not count.
And Bob, have a think to yourself for a moment and wonder how many of the British population would identify this aircraft as a Spitfire if it flew over their disinterested heads one day in the future. We really are the only people who care for these ancient relics (I even heard a much decorated war veteran bitterly complain that the entire contents of the RAF museum should be scrapped because it brought back too many bad memories to him and fellow members of his former squadrons old boys. I now never express an interest when I meet these distinguished gentlemen, which is sad but I would rather not try to explain to their muscle-bound grandchildren why they have suddenly burst into tears after talking with me) but imagine the political out roar if the people who complain that the only reason we (and by that I mean us as a nation and not us personally) went into Iraq was to seize the oil supply decided that we were pillaging potential national treasures too. And I think that they would be right.
Mark V – pedantic I know but it is a Fury, not a Sea Fury. And it is the Iraqi peoples to do with as they wish, when they wish. If they want to let it rot on the gate of an airbase – fine. If they decide to sell it to some American fellow to hang a ruddy great engine on the front and clip the wings so that it flies around in circles at great speed like all the rest, fine.
The law would frown on me nipping into my neighbours front garden and making off with his rusting bicycle no matter that I could counter that argument by saying that he didn’t care for it and I would restore it. Spencer Flack once said (about colour schemes on Spitfires, but what the hell) something to the effect of it is mine to do with as I wish and that is the point: it is not ours to do anything with.

I hate getting political but I shall manfully stand up to those teddies that will surely be launched at me. (45 minutes?)

Flood.

I don’t see how we can have ‘war prizes’ when the stated aim of the war was to remove Saddam from power and liberate the Iraqi people from the regime of the Barth party. Part of this aim was the stated notion that items of national importance to Iraq would be safeguarded. How does the looting of Iraqi Furies fit into this?
The type is now rare in Iraq after the sale to David Tallichet of the large batch in the 1970’s . I have to assume that the IDT
variant that was formerly a ‘gate guard’ out there served some purpose to the Iraqi airforce in a similar way to the RAF gate guards that are a feature of RAF stations. I cannot see how we can justify this action in any way . These machines are the cultural heritage of Iraq – do we still think we are a colonial power
free to plunder the heritage of other countries at will ?
Clearly the Iraqi people need medical supplies and power and water – the same applies to many people around the world.
Should we have used the same ‘carrot and stick’ principle in the 1980’s when Ethiopian children were starving. Should we have
‘removed’ the derelict Fairy Fireflies from their airfields in return for aid ?
The FAAM has no claim on any Iraqi Furies – they are not Sea Furies and I cannot see how any curator could accept them
knowing the circumstances in which they were gained.
As for the remainder of the mainly ex Soviet hardware – well
exactly what purpose could an Iraqi Mig-25 serve in a British museum? Exactly what daring feats of air combat would they remind us of ? If we want to be honest and decent to the Iraqi
people the best thing we could do would be to gather all these istoric machines together and store them in a HAS until such a time that the National Museum can take charge of them and
display them.