Greece – What Happens Now?

I wouldn’t say it is common sense, simply the expression of an opinion related to the EU argument. I don’t see how common sense has anything to do with it.

But leaving that aside I was not aware that, apart from being the major contributor to the IMF and therefore participating in lobbing millions in Greece’s direction, the US is directly involved in the EU’s fiscal mess.

The referendum case is usually justified for changes to our constitution. The referendum being proposed for Scottish indeoendence is just such a case. Our constitution is totally unaffected by our membership of NATO and the UN. Even UN resolutions committing us to deploy troops in anger are debated in Westminster.

Our constitution has already been affected by our membership of the EU in that a large percentage of laws and regulations which affect the day to day lives of all of us are not debated and made in Westminster but determined in Brussels.

the UN security council? I don’t see anyone here saying the UK should pull out from that. The Commission is very similar, member states appoint their own representatives.

Funny you should compare the EU to the UN…another hugely expensive waste of time 😀

Every further step of European integration has been taken by governments elected by people in the UK, so how is this undemocratic?

That is the usual argument…but it was a huge step for the countries involved…imho there was no need to go further than economic ties…the whole thing is riddled with inefficiency/waste,I would not mind if it was a better way of governing…but it is just a hugely expensive mess.
If the EU was a business it would have been killed off years ago.

Also there is the little matter of referenda until one got the correct answer 😉

Allow me…

Our referendum in 1974 was to join the European Economic Community…that is what we voted for – NOT a ‘Union’ that we have ended up with…blatently undemocratic…and no further chance to voice our opinion.

Also there have been instances where the EU has got its way by holding repeat referendums (referenda ?) until they got the answer they wanted (ie Ireland ?)

I don’t remember there being a referendum for the UK joining NATO, or the UN, or our subsequent signing of the Universal declaration of human rights etc.

Do you agree that the governments that you elect are entitled to make decisions on your behalf? Every further step of European integration has been taken by governments elected by people in the UK, so how is this undemocratic?

They Key decisions are made by the unelected Council and Commission: The Council is made up of heads of state or their representatives, e.g. the PM. They meet to discuss matters of joint importance, and the person chairing the meeting has the title of ‘President’. How is this undemocratic. How is it any worse than, say, the UN security council? I don’t see anyone here saying the UK should pull out from that. The Commission is very similar, member states appoint their own representatives. Do you contend that these positions should be elected? If so, why do we not elect Ambassadors, or our UN representatives?

Much like there are Welsh MPs sitting in Westminster who do not represent me, there is a French member of the Council, elected by his or her people, to represent them there. What is the substantive difference?

They have plenty of spending power though 😉 loadsa money and perks …I doubt if many people know the true cost of the European trough :rolleyes:

They sure have!!:mad:

…I doubt if many people know the true cost of the European trough

It could probably cover the debts of those countries now in trouble with plenty to spare…

Just as our financial straits could be sorted a lot quicker if we stopped paying money into the EU purse…

The elected MEPs have little or no power at all.

They have plenty of spending power though 😉 loadsa money and perks …I doubt if many people know the true cost of the European trough :rolleyes:

I just hope Cameron sticks to his recent statement that the UK will not be contributing any more of our money to this sinking ship. We’re not in the Euro so shouldn’t be filling up it’s coffers…

The key decisions are made by the unelected Council and Commission. The elected MEPs have little or no power at all.

So..how is the EU undemocratic? Do you mind pointing to specific example?

Allow me…

Our referendum in 1974 was to join the European Economic Community…that is what we voted for – NOT a ‘Union’ that we have ended up with…blatently undemocratic…and no further chance to voice our opinion.

Also there have been instances where the EU has got its way by holding repeat referendums (referenda ?) until they got the answer they wanted (ie Ireland ?)

No, indeed it is not and there is strong evidence that, given the opportunity, many electorates would have voted against the Euro. But that is not the way the undemocratic EU works, unfortunately.

So..how is the EU undemocratic? Do you mind pointing to specific example?

No, indeed it is not and there is strong evidence that, given the opportunity, many electorates would have voted against the Euro. But that is not the way the undemocratic EU works, unfortunately.

I think the political leaders of the member countries are more to blame than the “officials” although of course they are more than happy to run with the flow as they participate in the largesse the EU bestows upon them.

Trouble is that the federalists pushed through their plans without due regard to common sense and the poorer countries just saw ‘kerching’ — ie access to the EU gravy train.
Of course now the bubble has burst – the gravy train is still running despite the fact that nobody can afford it.
The senior EU financial officials/IMF must surely take the blame…the ordinary man on the street could see the problems of absorbing many bankrupt countries into an already corrupt and struggling EU…it aint rocket science is it :rolleyes:

Exactly so. Isn’t a cultural problem? The Greeks, the Italians and to a lesser extent the Spanish and Portuguese are raised into a culture of avoiding tax at every opportunity. Added to which in Greece and Italy the degree of corruption at the highest levels of public and private life obscure the realities of life.

Agreed, but the thing that has pushed Greece over the edge has been the increase in the interest costs of Greece borrowing. If Greece does default the interest costs of many other EU/Euro countries will go up possibly causing further defaults.

What I find most disturbing is that the Greek people do not seem to accept how bankrupt their own country is; all that seems to be happening is that they protest about government cutbacks. Surely they appreciate that they have been living beyond their means for years; public sector pay has apparently doubled in the last ten years and many Greeks do not seem to want to pay taxes in any case!

Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain! :rolleyes: I wondered what that acronym meant when I saw it the other day.

The problem is that we cannot afford ‘PIGS’ to all default and they almost certainly will if Greece is allowed to default.

But neither will the German electorate accept for much longer the inevitability of long term bail outs to prevent default. The only reason these huge sums are being spent is to protect the Euro and sooner or later it will simply become unsustainable.

I don’t know how WE can criticise Greeces economy.

Sorry, but we certainly can criticize the economy of Greece; our economy may be in poor shape but Greece is in freefall.

Greece is the tip of the ice-berg and the problems of the “PIGS” are not going to be solved soon.

Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain! :rolleyes: I wondered what that acronym meant when I saw it the other day.

The problem is that we cannot afford ‘PIGS’ to all default and they almost certainly will if Greece is allowed to default.

I don’t know how WE can criticise Greeces economy.
Has anyone looked at ours lately?, or are we all so well off we havn’t noticed?.

Lincoln .7