Guantanamo Bay

And did the US declare war on Afghanistan, or was it all rather similar to that performed by Japan on Pearl Harbour? Turn the question around and ask yourself whether America “has declared an open war on an Islamic country” – or any other country (other than Iraq) for that matter.

Where is ‘GIBCO’? Gibraltar wasn’t in the Axisssss of Eeeeeevul last time I looked.;)

Flood

Flood,

Yes there was a bill signed declaring war on Al Quida folks and the Taliban. As for any other Countrys none that I’m aware of but when and if we capture SOLDIERS from other Countrys wearing Uniforms we treat them accourding to the Convention. Hell the International Red Cross doesn’t even consider Al Quida or any Terrorist group as combat troups.

RER

Now Grey Area you better go back and read the Geneva Accourds very well because you will find that the only way you can be accourdstatus under the act is YOU HAVE TO BE A SOLDIER IN A GOVERMENT THAT HAS DECLARED WAR ON ANOTHER COUNTRY. End of subject what Islamic Country has declared an open War with the United States of America lat time I look none.

And did the US declare war on Afghanistan, or was it all rather similar to that performed by Japan on Pearl Harbour? Turn the question around and ask yourself whether America “has declared an open war on an Islamic country” – or any other country (other than Iraq) for that matter.

Where is ‘GIBCO’? Gibraltar wasn’t in the Axisssss of Eeeeeevul last time I looked.;)

Flood

Ok Folks,

About time for the me to jump into this, first Ben they were someplace they shouldn’t have been doing something they shoildn’t have end of subject.

Now Grey Area you better go back and read the Geneva Accourds very well because you will find that the only way you can be accourdstatus under the act is YOU HAVE TO BE A SOLDIER IN A GOVERMENT THAT HAS DECLARED WAR ON ANOTHER COUNTRY. End of subject what Islamic Country has declared an open War with the United States of America lat time I look none.

If these fine outstanding citizens where true SOLDIERS then why not go to some Islamic Coutry and become a Citizen and trhen join that countrys Military and then they would be a True SOLDIER. Notice the word folks the only way you are accourd rights under the Geneva Convention you have to be lest all say it together now SOLDIER. Ie a person who wears an uniform.

Personally I could care less if the folks at GIBCO withery away and die one or more less bad guys for the Internation Body to worry about, but hey then again the EU says there for fighting Terrisiom but wan’t give the US Courts help because we’ve said that the Death Pen. is an option so who is really talking out of both sides of their Mouths. 😡

When the EU wake up and realize that the Death Pent. is a deterant then maybe they will get ssroius or will it take Downtown Paris or Berlin or any other major EU City getting bombed to change their minds.

Yea go right ahead and say I’m crazy and nutts and I’m a Neo-Con but I like it that way.

RER

OK, SOC… if it’s all so legal and above board, why is the US Government holding these people outside the jurisdiction and remit of the Constitution and the US courts rather than in the USA itself? Are there no remote islands in Hawaii, for example, that would do just as well?

And you’re doing this deliberately, aren’t you??? 😮

Well, following my shocking statement that I’d like to see the UN Veto done away with, here comes yet another one:

We should give it up already and stop harassing the Cubans. We have a relatively good relationship with China, and they aren’t democratic. Why not Cuba? That’s hypocritical in and of itself. And the whole Kennedy family are absolutely worthless as politicians-Oswald did us all a favor.

As for holding the people without trial, you’re talking about different situations. If Cuba is detaining Cubans for no reason without a trila, that’s one thing (provided they are entitled to said trial under Cuban law…I have no idea). If we detain enemy combatants that is another entirely-they aren’t entitled to US legal protection and rights as, guess what, they aren’t US citizens. The guy that was, Lindh, well he’s already HAD his trial and moved into a nice cell.

As I said before, the system in place is working. It might not be working as fast as you’d like it to, but guess what, it is obviously working! If it wasn’t working, those two guys would still be in holding.

No, SOC.

We’d rather see justice done, the guilty punished and the innocent set free – if it’s OK with you of course.

And can I ask you – is it hypocritical of the USA to hold people without trial in Cuba when they have consistently criticised the Cuban government for doing the same?

Well, contrary to popular belief we did not go around rounding people up just because they had “tans and beards”. If these individuals were picked up, their was a reason at the time. Whatever that reason was, it was later determined that the individuals in question posed no threat. Again, the system worked. The bad people are still in jail, and the others are being filtered out and set free.

You lot would rather have had us round up no one, it seems, and left them to do whatever they felt like.

Oh wait, that wouldn’t be right, it’s the FARC itself that are the terrorists…

THAT’S the point: your gov’t is acting no better than the FARC.

Were these card carrying members of the vast AQ conspiracy or were the tans and beards enough “evidence”?

Steve

I was brought up to believe that capturing people at gunpoint and then locking them up without charge or trial was a Bad Thing.

I seem to remember that we in the West used to have pretty robust views on nations that acted in that manner.

Now we seem to have joined their illustrious ranks.

I honestly don’t give a button what justifications people trot out.

Look, it’s quite simple…..

If these prisoners were fighting a war against the forces that toppled the Taliban then they are POWs and are protected by the Geneva Convention. Their treatment to date clearly violates that treaty.

If they are armed civilians who committed acts of aggression against the US/UK forces, they are criminals who should be tried by due legal process and punished severely if found guilty on the basis of evidence presented to the court. After all, the evidence against them must be pretty clear – I should think they were caught red-handed. But this hasn’t happened either.

If they are suspected of terrorist offences, then once again they should be tried by due legal process and punished severely if found guilty on the basis of evidence presented to the court. Once again, this isn’t the case.

Instead, we are told that they are suspected “enemy combatants” – whatever that means. Apparently most of them have dark skins and beards, which seems to be evidence enough for some of you.

Just one final point – the USA openly holds people without trial in Cuba while at one and the same time castigating the Cuban government for allegedly doing the same.

If this isn’t hypocrisy then what is it?

Another al-Qaida hotbed. They wouldn’t have been arrested if they’d done nothing to arouse suspicion.

OOOh sorry. Forgot that too. You aren’t allowed to go anymore in Pakistan as well? Gee, are we still alowed to go to Iran? My sister in law is partly Iranian, she has family living there. Are we suspects now?

Doing something suspicious? It’s like arresting somebody because he’s looking to long at my car. he might steal it. 😡 😡 😡

Using your logic I presume you don’t have a problem with the US citizens being held captive by the FARC in Colombia, who enjoy the same amount of representation as the US allow the Gitmo detainees?

That depends, what were they doing when they were picked up? Were they merely businessmen or tourists, or were they involved in antigovernment activities or terrorism? Oh wait, that wouldn’t be right, it’s the FARC itself that are the terrorists…

One of the detainees released to the Belgian authorities wasn’t in Afghanistan:

There’s also Taliban and AQ members in Pakistan, I’d be curious to know if he was captured in a roundup of any of those individuals.

I agree with Moggy…it’s not like the guys were at a Starbucks somewhere.

Having said that, I do wish they would speed up the interrogation/release/whatever process for citizens of our alleged ( 😀 )friends.
It might make the US a few new friends….but probably not….I think most people’s minds are already made up.

Yes. Great ‘Devil’s advocate’ stuff Nermal, but unless these guys lived in a hermetically-sealed box they could see there was a conflict in the offing.

Make the choice to travel to such a country and you are taking the responsibility on your own shoulders.

Doubtless they were there selling double glazing or collecting for kidney research, but that’s the risk they took.

Stop weeping for them. It butters no parsnips here.

Moggy

And yet you would probably appreciate being held innocent until proven guilty if it was you in their place.
Anyway, you say they could see a conflict coming: how? In the national newspapers? On TV? From the radio? We have those means of communication and take them for granted. We even believe most of the factual stuff that is given to us by the media, within reason.
Didn’t one returnee say that the first he knew that there was a war on the way was when he got bombed and assumed that it was one of the warlords who’d got some aircraft working. I suppose under those circumstances you might turn round and say that you were in the wrong place, that these bombs were actually from your allies and could someone help you across the front line?
I weep for no one, except maybe your rather silly belief that the Americans were justified in sweeping people up and incarcerating them for up to four years with no proof, before throwing them out without even a sorry. If they were terrorists then obviously all that did was to inflame them before letting them go; if they were terrorists then the Americans have created a breeding ground for hatred; and if they were innocent civilians then the Americans could be said to be employing the same type of tactics expected of the nazis. I have no wish to hear of your fetish for parsnips either. – Nermal

Mesut Sen, was of Turkish origin and was captured by the U.S. military in Pakistan in December 2001

Another al-Qaida hotbed. They wouldn’t have been arrested if they’d done nothing to arouse suspicion.

Do you think we have a crystal ball that tells us the intentions and whatnot of every detainee the mintue they are picked up? It takes time, you know. There are people down there who are getting interviewed for the first time even still. Bitch about the system taking too long, but it did work in this case. Would you rather they have faced a false trial for some charge they weren’t guilty of?

If we weren’t busy eliminating Islamic extremism, the plague of the Modern world, we might be able to put more resources to processing these people, ever think of that? Of course, without Islamic extremism, there wouldn’t be detainees at Gitmo to begin with…

Wash your hands of them all Sean: send them to your friends in Uzbekistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria to torture “confessions” out of them.

Using your logic I presume you don’t have a problem with the US citizens being held captive by the FARC in Colombia, who enjoy the same amount of representation as the US allow the Gitmo detainees?

One of the detainees released to the Belgian authorities wasn’t in Afghanistan:

Mesut Sen, was of Turkish origin and was captured by the U.S. military in Pakistan in December 2001

This thread goes to prove there’s nothing like us Brits for being parochial and small-minded. Not really a surprise that the phrase “I’m alright, Jack” comes from these shores….

Steve

Fact is these guys were actually dropped of by a Herc on a military airport. There was police awaiting but the American soldiers just gave them in our hands with no documents. That means they didn’t have a case, not even in a military court. They would not have released them if they were guilty.

Do you think we have a crystal ball that tells us the intentions and whatnot of every detainee the mintue they are picked up? It takes time, you know. There are people down there who are getting interviewed for the first time even still. Bitch about the system taking too long, but it did work in this case. Would you rather they have faced a false trial for some charge they weren’t guilty of?

If we weren’t busy eliminating Islamic extremism, the plague of the Modern world, we might be able to put more resources to processing these people, ever think of that? Of course, without Islamic extremism, there wouldn’t be detainees at Gitmo to begin with…

…why were they send back?

You are right.

The US is a bit too soft on potential terrorists for my liking too.

Moggy

There’s no difference in theory. Both are innocent untill proven guilty. In fact, if they were dressed in terrorist suites etc and were sooo guilty why were they send back? Because US wants to please Belgium by releasing two terrorists into our society?

Don’t say you never talked to young girls.

I don’t think I ever have! Not just random ones in the street! Let’s face it too, there’s a hell of a difference between someone who may or may not be interested in playing “stroke the puppy” with a child, and someone from an organised terror outfit looking to kill thousands.

Why shouldn’t they have been there?

Yes. Great ‘Devil’s advocate’ stuff Nermal, but unless these guys lived in a hermetically-sealed box they could see there was a conflict in the offing.

Make the choice to travel to such a country and you are taking the responsibility on your own shoulders.

Doubtless they were there selling double glazing or collecting for kidney research, but that’s the risk they took.

Stop weeping for them. It butters no parsnips here.

Moggy