Guantanamo Bay

The battle we remember most from both wars is Galipoli (spelling)…

12,000 killed is on both fronts in WWII and although it probably sounds rather small our current army consists of about 5,000 regulars.

We declared war at exactly the same time as Britain, which due to the time difference meant that for 12 hours we stood against Germany alone… 🙂

I guess you’re right . However , I sort of remember that NZ had a lot of casualties in Normandy. I will dig a bit and let you know.

Hand

Well the chart is for the total casualties during the war not D-Day alone but it is interesting.

Regards

Sauron

Check this out :

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

NZ causulties during D-Day were not 10,000 or even a 1000 if any at all.

Sauron

I read something amazing.
During the D-DAY’s battle NZ is the country which had the most causulties per inhabiant. If I remember correctly , something like 10000 people: terrifying!!

“Believe it or not Garry , that’s an episode that nobody is proud of up here.”

And after a few years therapy with Dr Snowman (meant in a nice way) I have come to realise that the only people to blame were those in the French military and Government that thought it up.

Ever since however I have had no respect for any British, French, or American politician who states they are on the side of good and want to fight terrorism or for democracy. This was a case of the big guy getting away with doing something bad simply because they are big.

You’d think from the rhetoric from the Pro Americans here that justice should have been done. Reality is rather different… Big countries can largely do what they like as long as they don’t step on the toes of someone bigger. For all its morality and power the UK and the US did nothing to help a country that went to WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and many other little fights with them. We have troops in Afghanistan and are sending an engineer unit to Iraq when we get permission and in Bosnia and Timor and many other places. We are told we should support the US in everything it does after what it has done for us. It wasn’t a one way street you know.

We have been told in no uncertain terms that we will not get a free trade agreement with the US like the Aussies will… only fair after all we didn’t support the attack on Iraq… why should the US treat us like an equal trading partner?

Of course I suppose this all sounds like sour grapes, and in a way it is, but I guess the alternative of really kissing America’s ass would be much worse… dropping our anti nuke policy, say nice things about Bush jnr…

They have a few bases here in NZ that they’d probably like to keep. A listening station for Echelon and of course the base in Christchurch airport they use to fly to Antarctica. Some C-130s and the odd C-141, and not much else. They could probably move both to Australia, though that would be less conveniant for them.

Originally posted by GarryB
“Scenario. A Greenpeace boat explodes in Auckland Harbour and one man is killed. Who will help us find out who did it? No one it seems. We did get some police support from the Aussies, but the US, and the UK didn’t offer any help what so ever. The French… after we caught two of their agents returning a vehicle they had used in the attack attempted to bribe, then threatened us to get them released. In the end by threatening to ban NZ exports to the EU the French managed to force our government to send the two agents to Hau Atoll to serve their sentences. If serving at club med was too harsh within 6 months the male prisoner got a sore tummy and went back to France, never to return, and the female agent got pregnant and went home.
The guy they killed is still dead now.
Terrorism? …no, France is an ally.

.

Believe it or not Garry , that’s an episode that nobody is proud of up here. 🙁

“if NZ ever needed ANY aid in policing their own matters I think there would be more than a few countries willing to help out , the Commonwealth AND a couple of others at least “

Well it doesn’t work like that either.
Scenario. A Greenpeace boat explodes in Auckland Harbour and one man is killed. Who will help us find out who did it? No one it seems. We did get some police support from the Aussies, but the US, and the UK didn’t offer any help what so ever. The French… after we caught two of their agents returning a vehicle they had used in the attack attempted to bribe, then threatened us to get them released. In the end by threatening to ban NZ exports to the EU the French managed to force our government to send the two agents to Hau Atoll to serve their sentences. If serving at club med was too harsh within 6 months the male prisoner got a sore tummy and went back to France, never to return, and the female agent got pregnant and went home.
The guy they killed is still dead now.
Terrorism? …no, France is an ally.

Skyhawks didn’t help then either.

TTP and US agent:

Almost every answer in your replies degenerates into some type of pro-US diatribe…..franky its getting old and worn out. Your probably some right wing loser type, that has pictures of an American flag and Ronald Reagan hanging up in your house, like the ones you had in your college dorm…Its futile………keep dreaming that the US succeeds in all its endevours and I will pray that the US ever delivers on its promises to lead us to perpetual peace and brotherhood!!!

It is an old record and it is getting tired.

Someone (Pro American) pops up and says person x or country x is EVIL and needs to be dealt with. I or someone else who is not pro American pops up and points out that person x or country x used to enjoy the support of the US, or Person y or country y is supported by the US and has done much worse.

Result is a discussion about how I or whoever else dared suggest the US ever does anything wrong is Anti American, or evil, or a commie or left wing.

If anti American means not looking at America with glazed over eyes thinking it is perfect and anything it does is right… no matter what then fine… call me anti American.

Of course America is perfect, Gods chosen people. Your cities are all clean… you don’t need rubbish dumps… don’t even know what the words mean, you don’t have a word for prison, that is why you keep people at Guantanamo.. don’t have locks on your doors in America… and if you did you wouldn’t need to use them. You of course invented them.

I didn’t say i didn’t owe anything to the people surrounding me: i definately do, as does everybody else.

Sure, i love my family. But not because they’re Dutch. I love them for what they did for me. Do i love my country for the education i got? Well, perhaps i went to school in Belgium – pretty normal in the area where i come from. Work? Been looking for jobs across the border as well.

But the people around me are people whom i know by name, looks, character, oddities and everything. That is also the basis on which i respect them, or are friends with them.
Nowhere in all of this do i see the importance of nationality.

Again, if i was born in Iran out of similarly loving and educated parents, i don’t think there would be much of a factual difference in the amount of love, food, attention, care, tenderness and upbringing i would have recieved. And i would love them to the same extent. The country where this happened isn’t of any importance, except for the level of wealth available in that country. Sure, i am lucky to have been born in the Netherlands since it’s a very wealthy country with lots of institutions i appreciate – partly because they are nice, partly because i was brought up with them and hence don’t know any better. But again, i didn’t have anything to do with being born and most certainly did not have a saying in where i was to be born. Neither has an Iranian, Indian or Pakistani child. And even though all of those countries are obviously less wealthy than the country where i come from, the people from those countries i know do manifest themselves as patriotic people.

It definately has a lot to do with the fact that, from childhood on, i hardly ever spent a week without crossing a border. Spend lots of time in Belgium and Germany (both withing cycling distance) and guess what? Similar people, similar standards, the only difference was the colour of the license plates and other oddities which in my opinion have absolutely nothing to do with the people per se. So why bother with drawing a line in the sand, saying ‘Here be Netherlands’ and ‘Here be Belgians?’ Or ‘Here be United States of America’ and ‘Here be Canada’?

With borders all across the world being often so arbitrary, i still can’t see a genuine foundation for patriotism except a psychological urge to belong to a group. Your country is of course an easy club to ‘join’, as (unless you’re an immigrant) you haven’t got to do anything to become a member. You pay the membership fee (taxes – no, i won’t go saying the cheaper clubs have the strongest backing :devil: ), you abide the rules (the laws and customs), and if you want to you can even join another club where either the fee is lower or where the club leaders are more to your likings (some clubs really have bullying leaders though). I think it’s more or less the same as a religion: the bulk of all religious people were ‘born’ into a religion, the exception of course being those who willfully converted to another faith.
Yet masses of people born into a certain religion are absolutely sure their religion holds the Truth, and worships the Real God(s). Their feelings will sure be genuine, but i don’t think the origin of those feelings will survive a closer look. I think the same can be said about patriotism.

Perhaps other people make more of a mental issue of a national border than i do (sorry for sounding like an arrogant pr!ck), and do i fail to understand that mental image. Could be – but then i beg forgiveness for my ignorance.

And Vortex, i won’t interpret your post to the point where you could suggest those people don’t have the ‘right’ to be patriotic, as their countries are certainly less wealthy than the US, the Netherlands or the UK – i think you’re above such supremacist suggestions.

PS: Vortex, I fail to see how you can call “I did it all by myself, i don’t owe anybody anything” a typically leftist thing. Even if i had said it in my previous post, it would definately be one of the most rightist remarks i had ever made – individual responsibility and such 😉

Re: ..

Originally posted by Vortex
Arthur, patriotism isn’t about some stupid kind of allegiance to a country…it’s about allegiance to the people of a nation that provided for you. Don’t tell me you found food, education, and job when you’re born and supported yourself all this time and don’t need to pay back anything…that’s just typical lefty selfishness in the name of “humanity”…because like you said, you don’t owe anybody so nobody owes anything to you, you’re just by chance borned there?(and don’t even mention about your parents because that’s just selfish again, because without others your parents can survive alone in this world?) However, patriotism also means further extending the well being of the citizens where you’re being supported…therefore patriotism doesn’t have to have anything to do with where your are born or else you’re just being a bigot for saying that no immigrants will defend their adopted home because they are simply not born there (heard this many times haven’t we?). In addition, patriotism also involves doing the “right” thing for the “people” that you owe your well being, meaning if you have a corrupted leader or a despotic leader, then it is patriotic to fight against it to provide rights for your fellow citizens. The question is then, what is the right thing…and that’s much more complex than simple patriotism. Don’t mix blind nationalism with patriotism because that seems to be exactly what you’re doing. Its sad because many people from around the world are blind nationalists rather than patriotic…in fact they are not.

Well said , and far more eloquently put than I’m capable of

..

Arthur, patriotism isn’t about some stupid kind of allegiance to a country…it’s about allegiance to the people of a nation that provided for you. Don’t tell me you found food, education, and job when you’re born and supported yourself all this time and don’t need to pay back anything…that’s just typical lefty selfishness in the name of “humanity”…because like you said, you don’t owe anybody so nobody owes anything to you, you’re just by chance borned there?(and don’t even mention about your parents because that’s just selfish again, because without others your parents can survive alone in this world?) However, patriotism also means further extending the well being of the citizens where you’re being supported…therefore patriotism doesn’t have to have anything to do with where your are born or else you’re just being a bigot for saying that no immigrants will defend their adopted home because they are simply not born there (heard this many times haven’t we?). In addition, patriotism also involves doing the “right” thing for the “people” that you owe your well being, meaning if you have a corrupted leader or a despotic leader, then it is patriotic to fight against it to provide rights for your fellow citizens. The question is then, what is the right thing…and that’s much more complex than simple patriotism. Don’t mix blind nationalism with patriotism because that seems to be exactly what you’re doing. Its sad because many people from around the world are blind nationalists rather than patriotic…in fact they are not.

Alastair,
I’m far from being patriotic. I happened to be born in the Netherlands rather than in France, Russia, Malaysia, Iran or the US. Big f****ng deal if you ask me – there’s nothing to be proud of something which just happened to you by chance.

Although i can see some benefits of patriotism (enough eager cannon fodder to send to the Somme, for example), i sometimes wonder if some patriots don’t just try to compensate their lack of self esteem and personal gratification by hiding behind their country’s flag. I’m sure not all patriots are like that, but i have a gut feeling that quite a few self-proclaimed patriots only call themselves that to prevent themselves from being pathetic lozers.

Just my humble opinion though.

Alastair,
You got the point : patriotism is something nice. I don’t blame anybody to express his point of view. I just hate when somebody tells me about the frenchmen this or that.
I criticize the US that’s right , but not the citizen : I disapprove the action of GWB administration.
I can pretend to know the Amercican people quite well. I’m married with a CA girl , my step family lives in CA. Most of the american people that I know are nice people and not that different from us in many ways.
That’s all the point , and I agree , let’s keep this dialog nice and polite.

About NZ skyhawks, I didn’t even know they had any.

It would be nice if someday one of you guys could explain the rules of the commonwealth. It’s quite confusing from here.

Originally posted by Hand 57
I just like justice and freedom , I just you will agree on this. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes I do agree on this point , I apologise for being a bit abrupt in my previous post .

Although most of us live in a democratic state lets keep the arguments a bit more civil , I can appreciate the we are all patriotic to our own countries and ,I applaud USagent , Arthur ,yourself , TTP , SOC , GarryB and others for being so patriotic – I fully admit I’m proud to be a Brit and am proud to be a part of the Commonwealth , but lets keep the mudslinging down , if you don’t like or have no reasonable responses to a particular simply don’t answer to it .
And my final point , why should NZ have kept a handful of Skyhawks ?? , to look good at airshows ??? , to act as targets ?? , I think they were pretty sensible and it made good economic sense to chop them , if NZ ever needed ANY aid in policing their own matters I think there would be more than a few countries willing to help out , the Commonwealth AND a couple of others at least 😉

Originally posted by TTP
GarryB

Almost every answer in your replies degenerates into some type of anti-US diatribe…..franky its getting old and worn out. Your probably some left wing loser type, that has pictures of Mao and Che Gueverra hanging up in your house, like the ones you had in your college dorm…Its futile………keep dreaming that the US fails in all its endevours and I will pray that New Zealand or PRC or some other nation will step up on to the world stage and lead us to perpetual peace and brotherhood!!! Not Likely!!!

Ditto!

Originally posted by Hand87_5
When you say that this endless mess in middle east is hopeless, I think you’re definitly right. The western countries have created this situation in 1948

I wonder, what do you think they should have done differently?

and now we are paying the price of this big mess.
I don’t really belive that the roadmap will be succesful. Neither the Israelian gov nor the Palestinian one really want the peace.

‘we’? how are you paying the price? And if you’re paying such a price, then why is France leading the efforts to prevent the Hamas political wing, the roadmap’s biggest opponent and its biggest threat, from being outlawed in the EU? (not that there’s such a thing as a Hamas political wing, it’s just doublespeak that France hides behind so it won’t have to admit its unwilling to do anything against terrorism aimed at Israelis)

Originally posted by TTP
Hand 87-5,

While I would have gladly let those Taliban types drown in the Atlantic, I didn’t say it was the right thing to do. Personally I have a few friends who were killed on 9-11 and I’ve found I have little to no sympathy for any of these people….Also, I am tired of having to fly to Gitmo/Saudi/Kuwait/and now Bahgdad…after 13 years of this BS its starting to get old, I have a very tainted impression of this part of the world..I know I should be more enlightened, but at times I feel they are all beyond hope, It seems they enjoy war and could care less about peace. Its just not aimed at the US either, look at how the Iraqi’s and Iranians fought, as well as the civil war in Lebanon, Arab/Israel…the list is endlesss!!!
Back to the other thread…Listen to track 1 and 2 of the first linkin Park CD (its the red one) and the new one just came out in June, almost as good!!!

TTP . Sounds much better to me this way. I know that a lot of families has been detroyed in 9/11 tragedy. Revange is a natural human feeling when one has lost some beloved. Fortunately my family in the US is living in CA and we don’t know anybody killed in NY.
When you say that this endless mess in middle east is hopeless, I think you’re definitly right. The western countries have created this situation in 1948 , and now we are paying the price of this big mess.
I don’t really belive that the roadmap will be succesful. Neither the Israelian gov nor the Palestinian one really want the peace.

Let’s wait and see , but I’m affraid that right after the US President election (maybe before) the roadmap will be dead.

TTP,

I think you, and other as well, don’t do GarryB or any of the other so-called ‘Anti-Americans’ any justice by simply interpreting each and every word typed down as an anti-American slur. The fact is, by doing so continually (sometimes justified, other times definately not) all you do is create more resentment towards the US – worse still, you take it beyond the realms of politics and make it personal.

Let me give you an example:
Person X posts something like this:
“I think the involvement of the US in (pick a country) is not a good idea because (pick a reason).
Person Y, a rabidly proud and nationalistic American, replies:
“It is a good idea. We are liberating that country! Who are you to question American actions anyway – you come from a no-good-doing insignificant country anyway!”

And there we are, in stead of having a non-personal debate on global issues, we get into a slur between someone trying to defend his/her country on a personal level while the original issue is getting ignored.

A personal question: you said you wouldn’t mind throwing out Al Qaida suspects out of the back of your C-141 when flying. Fair enough, that’s your opinion and while i’m repulsed by it (and i really, really have to restrain myself about making comments about Argentinian, Chilean or USArmy-in-Vietnam helo pilots) i can understand how you come to think like that.
One question thoug. Would you have thrown that all-American John Walker Lindh kid out as well?

GarryB

Almost every answer in your replies degenerates into some type of anti-US diatribe…..franky its getting old and worn out. Your probably some left wing loser type, that has pictures of Mao and Che Gueverra hanging up in your house, like the ones you had in your college dorm…Its futile………keep dreaming that the US fails in all its endevours and I will pray that New Zealand or PRC or some other nation will step up on to the world stage and lead us to perpetual peace and brotherhood!!! Not Likely!!!