I reach for my gun !

Back to the original thread, wringing hands and getting all weepy over Bomber Commands tactics during WW2 is taking the issue out of it’s time and perspective.

My late Dad was a fireman during the war, although we didn’t live in Liverpool, crews were called in from a large area during the blitz, he was involved in the the Dunnings Bridge Rd incident were a shelter was hit, no-one got out, he was on the docks when the munition ship blew up in Huskissons Dock ( I think that’s right ), sadly no longer with us, but talking to these guys gives a different perspective.

At that time if Bomber Command could have wiped Germany off the face of the world, these men would have applauded with very little concern for casualties, sure after the event there is always the question of did we do it the right way?, could it have been done differently? but at the time it probably felt very right and like it or not no-one can unexplode bombs.

Not really; we keep hearing about “prisoner rehabilitation,” so I feel they should leave prison with at least one skill.

What stealing shovels?

Don’t you mean “give em the bloody shovel” !

Not really; we keep hearing about “prisoner rehabilitation,” so I feel they should leave prison with at least one skill.

Get them to repair the blasted potholes in the roads.

Don’t you mean “give em the bloody shovel” !

That pretty well summarises my long held opinion of that “what if”. Whichever way you argue it the post war world would have been very different without US participation.

As we are spiralling off into ‘what ifs’

America and Japan stay out of the war. Russia inexorably starts to roll up the nazi forces from the east.

Would we have tried to stage some mini-Overlord whilst the Germans were preoccupied? Without the shipbuilding might of America it would have been a very lack-lustre affair by comparison.

The Russians finally overrun Berlin, do we think they’d stop? My guess is they’d roll right on to the Channel adding France and the Low Countries to their ‘behind the Iron Curtain ‘ bloc.

Then, with the German rocketry and atomic research added to their arsenal do we think they would have been content to have the UK independent? Not a chance in my eyes.

Meanwhile the US, with no cause to rearm, would be pretty much helpless before Russian nuclear blackmail.

A very different world.

We sometimes see the less educated / intelligent Americans talking about ‘saving the Brits’

True they did, but it was the only way they would ever have saved themselves too.

Moggy

In terms of tonnage of bombs dropped B.17s and 24s were comparitively inefficient. Average bomb load was about 2.5 tons, rather similar to a Mosquito but, with the potential for a much greater crew loss.

In the last year of WW2 – March 1944 – March 1945, RAF Bomber Command dropped about 1 million tons on Germany with the American 8th Air Force dropping half a million. British production meant that we could produce all of our own ordnance and supply our Allies.

…what about the lack of B17s, B24s and the rest? Wouldn’t we have missed those?

The Second World War, or at least the war as we know it, couldn’t have been won by the British (Empire and Commonwealth) without the direct involvement of the United States. Assuming that Germany attacked Soviet Russia in June 1941 then Germany would have lost the Second World War and Britain would have been on the winning side but it wouldn’t have been the war as we know it now.

I thought that the question posted was about RAF Bomber Command; no USAAF B-17 or B-24 operated in Europe until August 1942. No bombs were dropped on Germany by the USAAF until January 1943 and the Ruhr was not bombed at all by the USAAF until June 1943. In comparison the Dambuster raid was in May 1943 and the firestorm in Hamburg was raised by the RAF in July 1943.

Until at least that point it is not safe to assume the RAF Bomber Command offensive would have continued more-or-less as it did without US assistance?

[QUOTE=paul178;2052219The war would in my opinion have dragged on for many more years though.

[/QUOTE]

Indeed so and that in itself begs the question of our survival without US intervention.

Well my Father would have missed B 24’s in the Middle East. I am sure though that the UK would have kept the Hun at bay until the Commonwealth geared up enough to provide Bombs and Bombers. Also Russia would eventually turn the tide on the Eastern Front. The war would in my opinion have dragged on for many more years though.

Also on the caravan front it did feature on TV, I don’t want to be marked down as a Daily Mail reader!!!!!!!!!!!!

CD – what about the lack of B17s, B24s and the rest? Wouldn’t we have missed those?

Anyone see the program that included the bit where honest UK citizens bought a £30,000 caravan that was nicked by travelers before it was insured. !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2381292/Police-wont-hand-stolen-caravan-couple-protect-human-rights-travellers-living-it.html

…if America had not joined the bombing campaign would we have continued our campaign? I would imagine we would have run out of bombs as I assume if America hadn’t entered they would not supply England with bombs as we couldn’t have produced them ourselves under a sustained Blitz…

I’m sure the shortage of bombs wouldn’t have been the main problem for Bomber Command had the US not entered the war; the shortage of Packard-built Merlin engines for Lancaster bombers would have been a bigger problem but the Bomber Command offensive could certainly have continued if at a slightly reduced tempo.

The German ‘blitz’ had a very limited impact on British wartime production; it is not often appreciated that Britain alone out-produced Germany during the war although in some categories, notably tanks, the quality was inferior to German production. Adding-in US and Soviet production it is amazing that the Nazi regime lasted as long as it did.

That raises an interesting point…so what about those who do have a right to be here but who abuse the system and make a living from crime…?:)

Get them to repair the blasted potholes in the roads.

Hi All,
Just one interesting question if America had not joined the bombing campaign would we have continued our campaign ? I would imagine we would have run out of bombs as I assume if America hadn’t entered they would not supply England with Bombs (Please correct if wrong) as we couldn’t have produced them ourselves under a sustained Blitz if we had to go it alone and referring back to my post about the UK’s City’s and Towns along with the other European targets being bombed also the Spanish Civil War there has been outcry for these acts on the scale their has been over the years about England’s campaign. The point about the British campaign was initially a response the German Campaign (Please correct me if I am wrong) don’t forget the Blitz was a terrible experience for those in England and the Europeans mainland that went through a similar fate.
My point is that what was England supposed to do just sit back and say well at least their not invading and everyone else can get on with it themselves ? No the decision for the bombing campaign was made after every option was weighed up and the risks worked out that plus until 1944 we could only fight in other country’s
so the only realistic option to take the war to the German mainland was an air campaign no matter what the risks and I dare say the pitfalls if it all went pear shaped only Bomber Harris can know the true difficulty of his decision it must of weighed on his mind till he passed on but he had to be prepared to shoulder the responsibility of his desicsion.

Geoff.

It is also about time we sent the pikey scum back to the Republic of Ireland as well…

Or maybe we could concentrate the gypsies into some sort of camp…..we’re on a roll here today!

All the above hand wringing about Royal Air Force bomber Command (of which I am a very staunch supporter incidentally) have nothing in the way of effect on me when compared with the sentence which contains the following words: ‘Field Marshall Douglas Haig–butcher–donkeys–slaughter–lions–loss of innocence, etc etc.
Please add your own words linking those above.
I fully expect a gut full of this in the next 18 months as the ‘experts’ crawl out from behind the skirting board to pass judgement on the events of 1914-1918.

So what should we have done? It was all out war. I assume civilians in Germany like those in Allied Countries were engaged in the war effort manufacturing armaments etc. or was it all done by slave labour from the Organisation ‘Todt’?

Perhaps we do and we take them as read and only get excited by articles about our so-called transgressions. Hindsight judgements are equally invalid whichever side you are/were on.

But history is all about hindsight. It wouldn’t be history otherwise.

Trying to get the thread back towards the OP’s point (rather than another diatribe against immigrants), the Bomber Command campaign was controversial even when it was happening so it cannot be “revisionist” to declare it so. No-one is denying that those that took part were brave beyond believe but what is being questioned is whether 55000 deaths was a price worth paying towards the eventual outcome. Up until 1943 Bomber Command was woefully inaccurate and lives were wasted for little or no gain. That is not “revisionist”, that is fact.
It is also known that Harris did not favour accurate precision attacks but rather a carpet bombing effort against the civilian population. His opposition to Chastise is also well-documented. His approach may well have been based on earlier experience but it doesn’t alter the fact that Bomber Command undertook a deliberate assault on the German civilian population right up until virtually the end of the war, when the outcome was almost certain.

Jail them don’t bail them or they disappear. If they are foreign nationals deport them after serving their time sod human rights and the EU. If they are British Born Jail them but we are stuck with them.(unfortunately) It is also about time we sent the pikey scum back to the Republic of Ireland as well. Oh Dear I said Pikey how non PC of me(not to be confused with any honest citizens of that country)

Anyone see the program that included the bit where honest UK citizens bought a £30,000 caravan that was nicked by travelers before it was insured. The Filth found it on a camp but would not return it to the rightful owner because it “would make a family homeless” Apparently it was bought in a pub for £300. Coppers just don’t have the guts anymore to enforce the law with this trash. I am sure most PC’s would enjoy a ruck with this lot but I am sure the order came from above to leave them alone. Still that is the UK today. I hope Mrs May has bigger balls than here predecessors!