Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

RE: Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-08-02 AT 01:05 PM (GMT)]
NOW THIS IS BULLSHIT!

http://www.msnbc.com/news/798785.asp?0cb=-4185737#BODY

To Fire on Iraq, Use a Trigger
However justified, America will not initiate a war with another country without a specific provocation. We are simply not going to do it

NEWSWEEK

Sept. 2 issue — Let me make a prediction. If the administration stays on its current path, there will be no conflict with Iraq. However justified the cause, the United States will not initiate a war against another country without a specific provocation. We are simply not going to do it.

DESPITE SEPTEMBER 11, no president is going to make a speech from the Oval Office saying, “Guess what, folks? Today I’ve decided to send American forces to invade Iraq and replace Saddam Hussein’s regime. God bless and good night.”
Remember that at the height of the Cuban missile crisis—when the Soviet Union was placing offensive nuclear missiles in Cuba aimed directly at the United States—John F. Kennedy rejected the option of attacking Cuba. “I don’t think I want my brother to become another Tojo,” explained Robert Kennedy, referring to the general who planned the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
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If the administration wants to take military action against Iraq—and I believe it should—it will have to find a provocation, a casus belli. Some suggest that we push Saddam Hussein and hope he reacts. Kenneth Pollack, the Council on Foreign Relations scholar, proposes that the United States launch a major covert operation against Saddam. When confronted in the past, he has lashed out. In 1996 the CIA helped launch a Kurdish uprising against him. In response he invaded Arbil, a Kurdish city under the protection of the Anglo-American no-flight zones. If once again we make him feel the heat, Saddam might do something stupid, like attacking his neighbors or collaborating with Al Qaeda.

It’s worth trying but probably won’t work. Saddam knows that America is praying he will do something provocative. He has learned his lesson from 1990, when small concessions from him might have derailed the gulf war. “Saddam is not going to do us a favor,” said Charles Duelfer, who was deputy chairman of the U.N. inspections team from 1993 to 2000.

All of which means, inevitably, that Washington will have to try to provoke a crisis over inspections. The United States should propose a new and vigorous system of U.N. inspections—with a clear deadline for compliance. If Saddam refuses or delays, he will give America a rationale that has U.N. sanction and can be used to build international support. Unfortunately the administration is paralyzed on this issue. The superhawks think inspections are a trap. They are right to see a danger that inspections will drag things out, turning into weekly battles about their shape and nature between Washington and the other members of the U.N. Security Council. The French and the Russians will quietly support the Iraqi government and try to defang the inspections.
But that’s where diplomacy comes in. An administration that constantly declares it represents the most powerful nation in the history of the world seems scared witless at the prospect of negotiating with a few French bureaucrats! And even if the inspections do not produce the perfect crisis, Washington will still be better off for having tried because it would be seen to have made every effort to avoid war.

The administration seems to believe that it already has a trigger. Saddam is building weapons of mass destruction, and the Bush doctrine of “pre-emptive action” argues that, in an age of terror, the United States does not have the luxury of waiting to be attacked. Pre-emption is a well-established idea in military history and justifies a decision to strike first, when hostilities are imminent. Israel launched a pre-emptive attack against Arab armies that had massed on its borders in the 1967 war. But Iraq is not gearing up to attack America right now. Invading it would be a preventive war, which must meet a high hurdle. After all, if developing weapons of mass destruction is enough to trigger an American invasion, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, India and China are all legitimate targets. It is the breadth of this doctrine that so worries staunch American allies.

“The United States should not argue that war against Iraq derives from some general law of pre-emption, but rather that it is a unique case,” says Gideon Rose, managing editor of Foreign Affairs. Saddam Hussein is building nuclear weapons. In fact he wants them so badly that he has, over the past decade, forgone $160 billion in oil revenues so that he could keep his labs free of inspections. He has attacked his neighbors three times and used chemical weapons on his own people. Most important, all other methods of handling him have been exhausted. The sanctions against Iraq have crumbled. Three years ago Saddam had access to $200 million to $300 million. Today smuggling and sanctions-busting gets him about $3 billion.
This problem is not going to go away. Unless Saddam is stopped, in a few years the world will almost certainly face a nuclear-armed megalomaniac. That’s why we need to get to work, find a trigger and—then carefully start shooting.

© 2002 Newsweek, Inc.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Arthur, he’s refering to certain recounts. Under certain conditions, Bush would’ve gotten the majority of popular votes, but under certain conditions Gore would’ve. Does it really matter? This is rediculous to even bring up or point out who got what because the margin of votes is so little that at best you can only say it was a tie. As to popular votes or electorates, a very large majority of Americans accepts that so no problem there. It dates back to historical reasons and if people today got problems with that in the US we have the power to change it. This is very different to use it to insinuate that other countries vote with popular votes therefore they must be more democratic or similar accusations. That’s pure BS. This is the same kind of thing as to why 50% of Americans don’t vote, simply because we really don’t see our liberties through politics at stake. But, no, Europeans often like to point it out as if it’s some kind of American problem or hidden problem. No problemo here. Remember the French elections a few months back? Instantly the European reporters called it Americanism in the voting. There’s a reason why you don’t see that as European arrogantness and patronizing, but we do.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Firstly, i have to plead guilty for calling PII a racist and a redneck. This was amongst others in a reply of PII saying that “despite he looks like a European, but has nothing in common with Europeans.” Don’t know if Kev ever did (Geforce did too), but anyway i could be the one reffered to using such extremely harsh words.

Phantom, if you cared to take a look at the source i gave you, it is clear that Bush did not get the majority of votes, only (by the famous small Florida margin) the most electoral votes. Deny that if you want, but wishful thinking does not change the facts. According to the US electoral system, Bush won. He only had less votes than Gore.

The figures from CNN (at http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/):
Bush: 50,456,169
Gore: 50,996,116

Please give me some sources if you claim that Bush won the majority of the votes, since i can’t seem to find them

>Geforce, I do read your posts. As choking to me as they are
>I read them. You know what I pick up out of it all? Nothing,
>and that’s because you don’t seem to get it.

Then why respond?

>You are so
>wrapped up in trying to prove that the EU is just as
>important as the US (and no, I’m not implying either way)
>when it comes to this issue or that issue that you feel
>putting down Bush is a good way to get some sort of
>satisfaction.

Unless you understand that human rights and national sovereignty apply to Burundi just as they apply to Belgium just as well as they apply to the United States (nothing more, nothing less) we will never be able to finish any discussion regarding US foreign policy. Putting down Bush is not a means to get some sort of satisfaction against the US (why should i?), putting down Bush is the result of an in the rest of the world’s perspective change in foreign policy to a highly questionable level with the intellectual level of a retard.

>The fact of the matter is, the American people
>(the majority anyway) approve of him and we respect him.

I hope that’s because of his domestic politics, as those are his actions that affect you. The rest of the world criticises Bush for his actions in foreign politics, as those are the actions that affect the rest of the world.

>When I said your comment as a European doesn’t matter I mean
>you as a non-U.S. citizen. You don’t vote for the man or
>have any say to who goes into office so why is it you keep
>on with your anti-Bush comments? Does it not get old to you
>after a while? Do you have a life?

If the rest of the world can’t vote for the US president, by what mandate is the US influence on the global military arena so big?

>Kev, actually although I approach it the wrong way, I do
>blow off Geforce’s comments as I know that his type is the
>type that lost the election. So it doesn’t really bother me
>much.

Apparently, it does. Onterwise Geforce’s posts wouldn’t choke you that much.

>I’m happy Bush is in office and I’ll be proud to serve
>under him when I get my commission in several years.

Please think about this question: will your mother be proud of you if you die for your country’s interest in some far away craphole in order to replace one anti-American government by another one?

>I love to watch his speeches on TV as they inspire so much pride in
>me as an American.

So the contents of his speeches don’t matter? I’m sorry, but if that’s how you judge your president i don’t think it would really matter who would be standing there as long as he’d been waving the Stars and Stripes and talks some militant rhetorics every now and then. For me, a good president would have to answer to different criteria but then again my opinion isn’t important.

>As far as the news media goes I don’t pay attention to them.

Then on what do you base your often very harsh opinions on the rest of the world? Gut feeling?

>Also, regarding me being a “racist”, I can tell you I’m not.
>Your believing me isn’t important in that we will likely
>never meet, but rest assured I’m not racist.

I hope you’re not, and i trust you in this. I do believe that in the ferocity of a discussion you sometimes cross the line in this respect.

>Regarding Saddam, I’ve actually changed my opinion on that
>somewhat. I really don’t think we should go in as much
>anymore.

Based on what? The news media? Comments of renowned Republican people who have knowledge in international affairs and are not affected by family-remorse? The ‘anti-American’ ranting you don’t consider important here?

>But, I can guarantee
>you that Saddam will either die or be overthrown. And I
>can’t say what or who will replace him.

The currently most likely candidate is Qusai, his son. Other candidates would be a Shi’i muslem from southern Iraq who would definately try to make close ties with Iran (America’s other good friend in the region), or perhaps a Kurd who’d immediately start exporting his revolution to Turkey. Or, even worse but extremely unlikely, a real democrat who would set a nice example for the region in which the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region would fall? I doubt the democratic thoughts in Saudi Arabia are pro-US, in case you’d like to know.

>I dare say whoever
>it is would be an improvement over him (it’s hard to be much
>worse).

The US thought the same about the post-Communist government of Afghanistan. Look what country the US went to war in a decade later.

>…if he isn’t overthrown by some group that is dedicated to
>improving life in Iraq. The hard part is finding that group.

‘Improving life in Iraq’ isn’t much of an issue. The rebel factions in Iraq either want the power to themselves (as many rebel factions all around the world, just like Saddam before he came to power), or want to improve life for their specific part of the Iraqi population. Neither appear to be much of an improvement over Saddam, although the initial opression could well be less (also remember that Saddam uses US/British pressure on his country as a sickening excuse to opress his people even more).

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Hi, PII.

“When I said your comment as a European doesn’t matter I mean you as a non-U.S. citizen. You don’t vote for the man or have any say to who goes into office so why is it you keep on with your anti-Bush comments? Does it not get old to you after a while? Do you have a life?”

Not sure whether this is aimed at me or Geforce but I’m going to jump in any way. I know I have no say but I find it increasingly worrying that although I have no say regarding the American presidency or foreign policy, it is the actions of America which may put my life in jeopardy. Yes, I have a life and I would like to keep it. If America does attack Iraq it is likely that every Moslem terrorist in the world will wish to strike back, and an awful lot of innocent people are going to die in the crossfire.

“I’m happy Bush is in office and I’ll be proud to serve under him when I get my commission in several years. I love to watch his speeches on TV as they inspire so much pride in me as an American.”

His speeches are hardly inspiring, he has neither the vocabulary or the personality to carry it off. I admire your pride and determination to serve your country. I sincerely hope that when you are called to duty Bush is no longer in office and that you will have the kind of leader you deserve. All this let’s get Iraq talk has only come about because of the failure to find or to kill Osama Bin Laden. Bush wants a war, and at the moment the best one he can come up with is against Iraq.

“Regarding Saddam, I’ve actually changed my opinion on that somewhat. I really don’t think we should go in as much anymore. I agree something has to be done, but I think that resistance from inside Iraq should do it. I mean I’m all for giving them the money and weapons they need, but as for sending in U.S. troops to fight those people I don’t know that it’s worth it. We’d win for sure, but I’m sure there would be casualties.”

He does need replacing but you can’t go in unilaterally. What needs to be done now is the use of all technology to find out if he does have weapons of mass destruction and where they are located, then eradicate the weapons. The replacement of Hussein could take years.

“You ask this Kev as if we are supposed to know. The point I’m trying to make is that Saddam does need to be replaced. Hopefully his replacement will be better than he is/was, but with all the idiots in the Middle East that won’t happen if he isn’t overthrown by some group that is dedicated to improving life in Iraq. The hard part is finding that group.”

I think you have a right to know what is being planned. After all it is young Americans who are going to die, possibly in their thousands, in pursuit of a strategy which hasn’t properly been thought out. Again, can someone please explain how Bush can wage war without the approval of Congress? Doesn’t that mean he can do it without the approval of the American people? Just how worrying is that?

regards,

kev35

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-08-02 AT 07:12 AM (GMT)]Wrong, Phantom, O so wrong,

“You are so wrapped up in trying to prove that the EU is just as important as the US (and no, I’m not implying either way) when it comes to this issue or that issue that you feel putting down Bush is a good way to get some sort of satisfaction.”

I indeed think that Europe is equally as important as the US, and so is every country in this world. Maybe the US is number one when it comes to military, but there are other things the United States score really bad. Not going to discuss all of them, did it already a thousand times.

“You don’t vote for the man or have any say to who goes into office so why is it you keep on with your anti-Bush comments?”

This man influences everyone’s life, not just that of the Americans. Agree, I can’t vote for the US president, but for many people outside the US, who the president is is very decissive. Not just for the thousands of Iraqi’s who will die because of the US bombing, but also millions of investors in Europe and Asia who lose their money because of an ongoing trade-war between Japan+EU and the US, who’s protecting its economy by breaking international WTO-agreements.
So yes, I do care.

“I love to watch his speeches on TV as they inspire so much pride in me as an American. “

They also inspire me, afterwarts I always want to eat Pretzals and drink Whisky for some reason :7. No, really, his speeches are worthles flag-waving BS. It’s not like he’s saying, we’ll do this and this to prevent that …, he says “America was under attack bla bla bla” “democracy” bla bla bla “freedom” bla bla bla. I must have seen his ‘axis of evil’-speech a thousands of times. At first I found it hilarious, now I start getting frightened because of what this man is up to.

“As far as the news media goes I don’t pay attention to them. I actually hate the news media (whatever network you are referring to…although I find Fox is usually a bit better than CNN….yuck.)”

I watch BBC World, CNBC and CNN on a regular basis, we haven’t got Fox here in Europe. But sometimes it would be good for you to watch BBC or some other Euroepan news agency. Try to watch France 2 or ZDF for instance, this way you’ll learn some French and German. I do it every day. No news agency is correct, but a mixture of them might gave you a better insight. Ever read the China-Daily for instance?

“At one point you claimed that Sharon was the only one at fault therefore implying that Arafat is innocent. Then later you claim that both sides are at fault.”

I did? No, I said Arafat can’t help it that there are so many terrorists. he can’t do much about it when Israeli jets were attacking his infrastructure. Always paraphrase and memorise, my friend, don’t just think what you like to hear. Anyway, you excused afterwarts for your behaviour on that topic, which is good, but still, it shows that you don’t have much respect for these people.

“I really don’t think we should go in as much anymore. I agree something has to be done, but I think that resistance from inside Iraq should do it.”

Well, than guess who’s gonna be the next enemy of the US. Probably these resistance groups, namely the Kurds. The US will give them financial and military back-up to overthrow saddam’s regime. If they fail, they will be left alone. If they succeed, they might ask for an independent Kurdistan, upsetting Turkey, Russia and Israel, America’s most important allies in this war against terrorism. And guess who will be flying the next planes???

“We’d win for sure, but I’m sure there would be “

You would also have won in Vietnam if you continued the war. But the war was very impopular. Just wait untill the first coffins with the Stars and stripes on them return, and see how popular a war will be. You could be in it, Phantom.

“And I can’t say what or who will replace him. I dare say whoever it is would be an improvement over him (it’s hard to be much worse). “

An islamic fundamentalist, a communists, no wait even worse … my god, not a tree hugger. Not much choises you have, Phantom. Democracy, yeah right !!!

Try to learn som Iraqi history, Phantom. You’ll see that in the 80s, Iraq was the most prosperous, progressive and educated Arab country. Did you even know that Baghdadi’s were hated by other Arabs because their city used to be such a nice place? There was even a good health-care system, at least better when compared to the other Arab countries like SA, Syria and so on.

Than Saddam did some bad things, I agree, like gassing his ‘own’ people. In fact, in a modern definition, they could be considered to be ‘freedom fighters’ or either terrorists. Up to you, but isn’t that what you want, gas the terrorists? Well, exactly what SH did, ofcourse making more casualties among the popoulation. But don’t say the allied forces didn’t do this when they were bombing the Iraqi troops trying to flee. Ever seen pictures of the highway of Death? (http://www.deoxy.org/wc/wc-death.htm) Some B-52s dropping loads of bombs on Tanks, necessairy?

“The hard part is finding that group.”

Yeah, untill then, there shouldn’t be a war.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

“Garry, regarding Lindh, I’m sorry but I don’t have any compassion for him. “

I don’t have any compassion for him either. He is a religious nutter that went to a country where his religion was creating a utopian society. A leadership I might add that was supported into power by his home country. When he got their and saw how people were treated it didn’t seem to bother him. Women were indeed treated like animals… houses partitioned with areas for guests and areas for women that were seperated. If your home country hates communism sooo much and you think a utopian society is where half the poulation have even less rights and power than under communism then I think very little of Lindh and those he was with.
Having said that many other religions have very strict rules that limit freedom in the same way. If we kill Lindh, do we kill all 7th day adventests?, All Mormons, etc etc?
Regarding him being able to kill US citizens… US prisons are full of such people.
His position in their armed forces would suggest he wouldn’t know who he was fighting till he was shot or came across a dead american in uniform.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Geforce, I do read your posts. As choking to me as they are I read them. You know what I pick up out of it all? Nothing, and that’s because you don’t seem to get it. You are so wrapped up in trying to prove that the EU is just as important as the US (and no, I’m not implying either way) when it comes to this issue or that issue that you feel putting down Bush is a good way to get some sort of satisfaction. The fact of the matter is, the American people (the majority anyway) approve of him and we respect him.

When I said your comment as a European doesn’t matter I mean you as a non-U.S. citizen. You don’t vote for the man or have any say to who goes into office so why is it you keep on with your anti-Bush comments? Does it not get old to you after a while? Do you have a life?

Kev, actually although I approach it the wrong way, I do blow off Geforce’s comments as I know that his type is the type that lost the election. So it doesn’t really bother me much. I’m happy Bush is in office and I’ll be proud to serve under him when I get my commission in several years. I love to watch his speeches on TV as they inspire so much pride in me as an American.

As far as the news media goes I don’t pay attention to them. I actually hate the news media (whatever network you are referring to…although I find Fox is usually a bit better than CNN….yuck.)

Also, regarding me being a “racist”, I can tell you I’m not. Your believing me isn’t important in that we will likely never meet, but rest assured I’m not racist. And Geforce to be honest you picked the wrong thread to link to as I went through it and you got throughly chewed out on several counts. At one point you claimed that Sharon was the only one at fault therefore implying that Arafat is innocent. Then later you claim that both sides are at fault. I’m not trying to bring that topic up again, but you really need to stop criticizing me as much when you yourself are contradictory or just plain wrong at times.

Regarding Saddam, I’ve actually changed my opinion on that somewhat. I really don’t think we should go in as much anymore. I agree something has to be done, but I think that resistance from inside Iraq should do it. I mean I’m all for giving them the money and weapons they need, but as for sending in U.S. troops to fight those people I don’t know that it’s worth it. We’d win for sure, but I’m sure there would be casualties. That’s just war. But, I can guarantee you that Saddam will either die or be overthrown. And I can’t say what or who will replace him. I dare say whoever it is would be an improvement over him (it’s hard to be much worse).

You ask this Kev as if we are supposed to know. The point I’m trying to make is that Saddam does need to be replaced. Hopefully his replacement will be better than he is/was, but with all the idiots in the Middle East that won’t happen if he isn’t overthrown by some group that is dedicated to improving life in Iraq. The hard part is finding that group.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Where did I say I was an expert. My god, can’t remember that anymore. Read my posts, Phantom, read them.

I just knew I had to alert the webmaster back then when he was preaching his racist comments on Palestinians “I have no respect for them because they live in dumps”. That’s one sentence I will never forget, shows who you really are.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Hi PII.

Now as for yours and Geforces arguments, I’m sure we’re all pretty used to them by now. Still, while you’re at each others throats at least you are leaving everyone else alone.

“And it also irritates me the manner in which you criticize Bush. Seeing as I have to take an Oath to defend my Constitution (that of the United States), he is technically my commader-in-chief.”

Why? If you are so confident and sure of his leadership any external criticism should be to you as ‘water off a duck’s back.’ On the point of his being your Commander-in-Chief, can you explain how he now has the ability to wage war without the consent of Congress? To an outsider who believes that America is a democracy this seems almost a dictatorial move rather than a democratic one. If he no longer has to go through Congress does this mean that the wishes of the American people are no longer considered of importance either?

“I have great respect for him, and you really have no place to criticize him as you are not in his shoes and you have no idea what he has to deal with on a daily basis.”

Respect is something that is earned. We have as much right to consider whether he is worthy of respect as you do. As for having no idea what he deals with on a daily basis, if the American government was as transparent as it would claim to be I’m sure we’d have more of an idea.

“That said, I believe he is a capable leader, who actually did win the election (it was later proven he did get more votes than Gore…and I mean votes from the people, not just electoral votes)”

That’s gone now. Whether he won fair and square or not, and it seems under your system he did, that’s all history now. Our concern should be with what he does with his Presidency.

“and has handled the challenged he’s been faced with very well.”

Sorry, but there we have to disagree.

“Your input as someone from Europe is rather irrelevant.”

Is it really? Then why do you keep asking for European support? There may well be a time to oust SH, but I don’t think it’s now. No American member of this forum has yet told us who or what SH will be replaced by. If someone could allay our concerns in that direction perhaps we would be more supportive.

Regards,

kev35

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-08-02 AT 09:05 PM (GMT)]bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla and so on.

Everyone called you a racist after the palestinian-thread, you even admitted it yourself. I think it was Pakistani or so who blamed you for a being redneck, not even me. Will look it up.

http://www.keymags.co.uk/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=2…

But you said one sentence which I can reply on “Your input as someone from Europe is rather irrelevant” That’s exactly what’s wrong with it. isolationism …

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Mongu, actually Geforce has referred to me as a redneck and a racist and such, both things of which I am not and have never been.

Regarding personal attacks, they are simply what I like to call returning the favor. Originally I thought of you as cocky but had no problems with you until you began to attack me personally and so therefore I retaliate. When dealing with me, just remember, as it is often said, “You started it.” As childish as that may sound, it is the truth in this case. The problem with you Geforce is that you seem to think you are the expert on many things and you tend to feel you know it all as a matter of speaking. None of us is an expert on anything so you should consider changing your approach to things.

Regarding my referring to you as a tree hugger, this term doesn’t necessarily mean someone who is an environmentatlist. If it did, I would call myself one as I was brought up to respect the environment and treat it well, which I always try to do. I never litter, I always cut the six-pack rings, I recycle when I can, etc.

A tree hugger is someone who is so absorbed in appeasing the rest of the world (or just others in general) and avoiding conflict at all costs that they are somewhat blinded in their views. While I’m certainly no war advocate, there is a time for it, when negotiations won’t always work. I don’t know that the Iraq thing is a good example when you look at the situation now, but in general there will always be a time when negotiating won’t work. It seems most of Europe wants to negotiate with people who have made it quite clear that negotiation is not what they are going to accept.

And it also irritates me the manner in which you criticize Bush. Seeing as I have to take an Oath to defend my Constitution (that of the United States), he is technically my commader-in-chief. I have great respect for him, and you really have no place to criticize him as you are not in his shoes and you have no idea what he has to deal with on a daily basis. That said, I believe he is a capable leader, who actually did win the election (it was later proven he did get more votes than Gore…and I mean votes from the people, not just electoral votes), and has handled the challenged he’s been faced with very well. I’ve met very few Americans who don’t support him or feel he is a good leader. The military has full confidence him and so does a large majority of the people. Your input as someone from Europe is rather irrelevant. So please either stop voicing your opinion on him in the manner you do or find another way to go about it. It really has grown old.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-08-02 AT 08:23 PM (GMT)]I never called him a redneck, Mongu, only an idiot, but considering his latest posts, this can only be seen as constructive criticism :7. I’m just sick of his personnal attacks on me just because I happen to be more thoughtful and less supportive of the “evil Bush-administration” and their “wicked plans”.

BTW, if you’re such a tree-hater, Phantom, tell me how you are going to produce O2 out of CO2 again without the use of trees. Maybe you have a better way to make clorophyl? Trees are necessairy because they are the longs of mother earth, you don’t have to be a tree-hugger to admit this. Ohh wait, i’m the enemy, right. Boe-hoe, I’m scared! :7 :7

Don’t worry phantom, i don’t consider you to be the enemy, I just think of you as a braindead robot.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

That’s somewhat childish P2. Geforce would be equally silly and equally incarruate if he called you a redneck, but I don’t think he has done such?

RE: Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

Innocent until proved guilty.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Whenever you are ready to stop hugging those trees.

And authority? Lol…..the only authority I need to hear from right now are the commanders in my AFROTC unit.

Tree huggers such as yourself I consider the enemy.

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-08-02 AT 07:29 AM (GMT)]Stop calling me a tree hugger, I never gave you the authority to do so. BTW, Garry is not a tree hugger, still, I share many of his views. It’s only with SOB’s like yourself i get irritated.
Just stop BS’s, allright?

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

I sound like an 8-year old kid? Coming from you, the world’s leading tree hugger, that is a joke. Take a look in the mirror pal. If someone isn’t a tree hugging SOB such as yourself you tend to get a bit irritated with them.

Garry, regarding Lindh, I’m sorry but I don’t have any compassion for him. He became part of an organization that is nothing but a bunch of heartless SOB’s. Add to that the fact that this organization supported Al-Quaida and I have reason enough to hate this idiot’s guts. He betrayed his country and if I were in charge, he’d pay much more dearly than what he will receive. There’s nothing I can do about his punishment though so tree huggers like Gef should be happy about that.

Regarding, Iraq, I’ve changed my perogative on that. I don’t feel we need to get involved. I don’t really care what happens in the Middle East and I don’t want to see my countrymen die from some chemical weapon that Saddam might through at any invaders. If he’s no problem as most of you seem to think, then let’s just forget about him. Personally I wish the U.S. would leave the region (except Israel of course) entirely. I don’t see any point in keeping up relations with countries who hate us regardless of what we do. I’m sure some idiot will replace Saddam if he is taken out though to be honest. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, the Middle East has more idiots per square mile than any other region on this planet.

RE: US presses case for attacking Iraq

> He inferred that if President Bush did not manage to bring
>about a change of regime in Baghdad, he would regard it as a
>failure of his presidency.

this is why i said BBC is a piece of #####, always add their own insinuating tones in a very very suspicious ways of their point of view. No where in the US news and in the transcripts of the meeting have the vice president even “inferred” that. In fact by saying this adm should not leave it for latter administrations directly means to criticize the Clinton administration for doing too little after continuous terrorist threats and attacks. How does saying what Cheney did “inferred” the above comment? Cheney is hawkish, but this continual misinformation is just making BBC less and less newsworthy and more propaganda.

RE: Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-08-02 AT 03:37 PM (GMT)]Yeah many women like to wear Burka’s, sure. This northern alliance are just another bunch of terrorists, taking over power. I’m very cynical about this new so called gov’t. I just have to wait, AFAIK, things on the ground haven’t changed much since 9/11 for the ordinary Afghan man/woman.

Continue your interesting chat, Phantom! Go ahead, tell us how you want to kill “all people involved with Taleban and Al Quada”. Finished? Or still angry?

RE: Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-08-02 AT 08:32 AM (GMT)]”I don’t know much of the Taleban, but I don’t think a women in Afghanistan is happier now, she still has to wear her Burka and her son might have been killed on some wedding party. “

Actually there has been a huge change in the way women are treated in the cities. They can now apparantly go to work and to school. Many of the women choose to wear the Burka anyway and her son is just as likely to lose limbs from landmines or unexploded ordinance as not.

Although I do not agree with why the Taleban were removed (it sets a bad precident… no other country on this Earth would hand over people without proof.) it is definately a great improvement over what they had. The best thing the international community can do is go in there and fix everything they can and then just leave them alone.

PhantomII… you seem to have a lot of hatred for a fellow American whose only crime was to not change sides when his former government did… you sound like he flew the first plane into the WTC.