Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

Israel gravitates towards peace?? Well then there must be bit different gravitation down there thna up here

…and rhetoric is cheap.

Because Israel is otherwise willing to coexist side-by-side with the Palestinians peacefully with out this unnecessary bloodshed. All it would take is for the Palestinians to knock off the terrorism and offensive strikes and all would essentially be at peace. That seems to be the status quo in that region until yet another radical Islamic faction decides to start up the fight again and bring hell to both sides of the situation.

Radical Islam holds the key to peace in its actions, not Israel. Israel’s resolve naturally gravitates toward peace while radical Islam gravitates toward conflict. This is why no one seems to listen when radical Islamists yell about the loss of innocent lives at the hands of Israel. Should I preach to the bees about the pain my children suffer every time I thrust a stick into their hive? Should I expect them to care enormously about my suffering if it comes at the hand of my own idiocy?

Israel gravitates towards peace?? Well then there must be bit different gravitation down there thna up here :rolleyes:

The 3 clowns will likely agree to have NATO peacekeeper establish a buffer zone (about as uselessly as the UNFIL peacekeepers). All this means is Hezbollah will get longer range Fajar-3 missiles from Iran and shoot them over NATO’s heads into Israel. Lebanon will agree because Rice offered $$$$$s Billions from the US Treasury as aid.

Or they might bought some ashskjraskshs (or what ever was the new iranian fighter is called) and make even worse bombings…and not to mention about the soon-to-become nukes…man Israelians should just kill every single arab living othervice they are facing doom, a doom, A DOOM…. 😉

In 11 months since Israel withdrew from Gaza, several thousand Kassam rockets have been shot into southern Israel from Gaza.

In the past 14 days, 2,300+ Katyusha rockets have been shot from southern Lebanon. This is 6 years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon.

Israel is in a proxy war with Iran and Syria and the Israeli leadership refuses to acknowledge it. Instead Olmert, Peretz and Halutz run about like 3 circus clowns babbling about “priorities” and “negotiations” and “NATO peacekeepers”. Neville Chamberlain couldn’t have done better than those 3 jokers.

The latest story to soothe worried Israelis is that Hezbollah is running out of rockets. Yup, only 3 more weeks of bombardment until they are out. They will run out because they have shot them all at Israel, not because the IDF was allowed to go destroy them.

The 3 clowns will likely agree to have NATO peacekeeper establish a buffer zone (about as uselessly as the UNFIL peacekeepers). All this means is Hezbollah will get longer range Fajar-3 missiles from Iran and shoot them over NATO’s heads into Israel. Lebanon will agree because Rice offered $$$$$s Billions from the US Treasury as aid.

And Syria and Iran get a free pass.

So when all we see from the news is innocent palestinians and lebanese being killed by you guys…So why should we care if they make terrorist attacks agaisnt USA and Israel and kill them???

Because Israel is otherwise willing to coexist side-by-side with the Palestinians peacefully with out this unnecessary bloodshed. All it would take is for the Palestinians to knock off the terrorism and offensive strikes and all would essentially be at peace. That seems to be the status quo in that region until yet another radical Islamic faction decides to start up the fight again and bring hell to both sides of the situation.

Radical Islam holds the key to peace in its actions, not Israel. Israel’s resolve naturally gravitates toward peace while radical Islam gravitates toward conflict. This is why no one seems to listen when radical Islamists yell about the loss of innocent lives at the hands of Israel. Should I preach to the bees about the pain my children suffer every time I thrust a stick into their hive? Should I expect them to care enormously about my suffering if it comes at the hand of my own idiocy?

As for my time in the US Air Force, I was always told our mission was to kill people and blow stuff up.

Then perhaps you missed out on something important. Most USAF personnel I’ve communicated with have expressed sentiments and moral principles which are completely different from yours.

As for not caring about the Arab body count. All I see on the news is them chanting “Death to America!” “Death to Israel!” and burn our flag and ram planes into buildings.

What you see on the news is not necessarily representative of the Arab world as a whole. Much of the media is caught in its own habit; focusing on events which can be made into sensations spurring attention and feelings. Sober, balanced, unbiased and objective news reporting isn’t the biggest business in the world today.

So why should I care when we bomb and kill them?

If you don’t think it’s important to differentiate between fighting personnel and unarmed civilians, then perhaps you share some of the same moral principles as the bulk of terrorists.

Now, I don’t mean to act as a forum police. I don’t mean to say whether your opinions are “right” or “wrong.” I just want you to know that I disagree with some of what you’ve expressed so far.

You know, if the Arab world would just tell the West to stop supporting Israel or start buying oil at $200 dollars per barrel, the Hezbullah Holocaust would be over…

Either the Palestinians are going to lose the war, or the land they are fighting for will be completely destroyed anyway!

I would respectfully disagree with this. 30% of Isreal is already Arab. European Isrealis are not reproducing in the same rate and Arab Isrealis. Isreal had to import in Russian Jews in the 90s just to keep the numbers up. That’s why I don’t understand why the Palistinians are shedding so much of their blood for this. West Bank, Gaza, Isreal, all of this isn’t going to matter much in 20 years. It’ll all be inhabited by Arabs anyways. Isreal can try and legislate a “Jewish State”. But the numbers will tell you that is impossible.

Well I just heard the vaunted BBC admits that most of the “civilan” deaths in Lebanon may be Hezbollah terrorists

For the sake of an informed debate it would be really helpful if you could quote your source or provide a link.

I can’t see anything of the sort on the BBC News website at the moment, and I’ve got the BBC News on in the background as I type this and there’s no mention of any such statement. :confused:

Is there anybody in this forum that has served in the military? Its seems like most folks here don’t have a understanding of war and conquest.

Corporal in the finnish army (in reserve at the moment), reporting to duty :p

As for not caring about the Arab body count. All I see on the news is them chanting “Death to America!” “Death to Israel!” and burn our flag and ram planes into buildings. So why should I care when we bomb and kill them?

So when all we see from the news is innocent palestinians and lebanese being killed by you guys…So why should we care if they make terrorist attacks agaisnt USA and Israel and kill them???

Well I just heard the vaunted BBC admits that most of the “civilan” deaths in Lebanon may be Hezbollah terrorists. Hezbollah are using private homes to hide out and as the BBC reporter on site reported one can’t tell who is civilian and who is Hezbollah.

As for my time in the US Air Force, I was always told our mission was to kill people and blow stuff up. What to the rest of the world’s armed forces do? Play paddy cake?

Actually all abled bodied are required to serve in the IDF I believe so that may be what the terrorist think.

As for not caring about the Arab body count. All I see on the news is them chanting “Death to America!” “Death to Israel!” and burn our flag and ram planes into buildings. So why should I care when we bomb and kill them?

I guess it all comes down to this: Either you believe Israel was established as a legitimate nation following WWII, or you don’t. Other than that, neither side’s point of view is really any more righteous than the other. Possession is 9/10ths of the law as they say, and Israel is never going to let go of what is physically, legally, historically and righteously (as they see it) their land. Either the Palestinians are going to lose the war, or the land they are fighting for will be completely destroyed anyway! Even if you’re fighting for principle alone, the means to an end currently being emplyoed by thr Palestinians is completely illogical.

IMO, a legitimate Armistice, as well as a number of truces were agreed upon that more than adequately defined the reality of Israel as a soverign nation long ago. Numerous wars since then have also proven Israel’s dominance over the fringe opposition. It’s a shame that the entire world is going to get dragged into war over a few hundred square miles of desert real estate that could otherwise have been shared anyway, but the Palestinians (like the Japanese) desire the “hard lesson” over what otherwise would be an extremely minimal materialistic compromise. If WWIII is what it takes to finally put an end to the otherwise vanquished axis alliance of WWII, so be it IMO. Germany, Japan, and every other Axis faction capitulated in 1945. If the Palestinians want to hedge their bets against their own promises and agreements, they can expect the rest of the world now (including Germany, Japan, etc) to work against their regressions to correct their lapse in judgement.

Speaking as a moderator, I’ve always found that so long as both sides in an argument accuse you of bias, you can be reasonably sure that you’re getting the balance right. :D:D:D

Great failsafe! 😀

I bet my a$$ if anyone posted such load of extremist trash against USA or Israel, he would be immediately kicked off here without warning.. :rolleyes:

Speaking as a moderator, I’ve always found that so long as both sides in an argument accuse you of bias, you can be reasonably sure that you’re getting the balance right. :D:D:D

Calm will once again come to the area, it will not be because of overwhelming military destruction, it will not be due to any reversal of ideology, it will be due to a negotiated settlement. In the meantime hundreds of lives on one side and thousands on the other will have been wasted.

All in the name of religious belief.

…what a wonderful world…

Whether you believe it was Christ or Muhammad that gave us words of devine wisdom we should live by with each other, how come it is only those who remain tolerant of either argument have grasped the collective wisdom of it, and those who claim to be followers, however devout, have missed the point entirely.

How many more jumps in evolution will it take for humans to realise their fate in the future does not come from a book written way back in the past.

Hear, hear.

Fortunately, the scourge of religion does not include all human beings, and some of those who are encompassed by it are able to master it in proper ways, e.g. by keeping it to themselves and refraining from (ab)using it as some asinine incentive to go around and hurt people who happen not to agree with them.

wow there’s quite a number of anti-israel sentiment.. some of which are coming from Americans even!

What exactly is your point?

Why is it “anti-Israeli” to criticise Israel on a basis which has nothing to do with its right to exist? I sometimes criticise my own country and its people for this and that. Does that make me an anti-Norwegian?

Is it your opinion that Americans form some sort of a homogeneous unity which should share one common sentiment about Israel?

Like the millions that have died in Africa from famine and warfare

The forgotten millions. The world seems to “forget” about those all the time. They represent issues which, measured in human lives, are far greater than those of other hot spots in the world today. Still it seems to me that more people are a lot more into the lesser issues.

So what’s a few Arab, oh I mean “Palestinian” civilians dead, they are just terrorist in waiting as far as I’m concerned.

Perhaps some Palestinian terrorists support a similar version of that sentiment, e.g. that Israeli civilians are potential IDF personnel and are therefore legitimate targets?

As I’ve stated before; you’re entitled to your own opinion. I disagree with you, though.

US law is not international law and UN law has no teeth so why should anyone obey it?

So you think it’s entirely OK to e.g. commit acts of terrorism because other elements have resorted to such actions?

Is there anybody in this forum that has served in the military?

Several, as far as I know. Including me.

Its seems like most folks here don’t have a understanding of war and conquest.

I was more into rifle squad tactics, air defence and flight procedures.

I want them dead and I don’t care how many “innocents” die to accomplish this. They allowed their regilon to be hijacked by extremists and have done nothing to remove the radicals from power, so they are gulity.

Those words share a striking similarity with statements made by different terrorist organizations.

if it means turning the Middle East into a giant sheet of glass so that everything I care about survives then so be it!!

I’m surprised they even accept individuals with such views in the U.S. armed forces.

Replace *terrorists* by *Israel* and you sound exactly like a hardcore HAMAS supporter. :rolleyes:

Funny how posts like these openly justifying killing based on nationalism are easily tolerated.. I bet my a$$ if anyone posted such load of extremist trash against USA or Israel, he would be immediately kicked off here without warning.. :rolleyes:

Whatever, the West is full of p^&$@!& now and they don’t have a clue or the balls to stand up and fight against someone who doesn’t want to talk or live side by side.

Hey dude, I’m a live and let live kind of guy but my nation has been attacked by terrorists several times and they say they want to destroy the US. I don’t want to talk to them, I don’t want to know why they hate me, I’m not going to bury my head up my a$$ and pretend it didn’t happen and hope they will go away. I want them dead and I don’t care how many “innocents” die to accomplish this. They allowed their regilon to be hijacked by extremists and have done nothing to remove the radicals from power, so they are gulity. If it is extreme to protect my way of life and the people I love from someone who wants to destroy me then I am an extremist. I didn’t start this fight but I’m going to finish it and if it means turning the Middle East into a giant sheet of glass so that everything I care about survives then so be it!!

Replace *terrorists* by *Israel* and you sound exactly like a hardcore HAMAS supporter. :rolleyes:

Funny how posts like these openly justifying killing based on nationalism are easily tolerated.. I bet my a$$ if anyone posted such load of extremist trash against USA or Israel, he would be immediately kicked off here without warning.. :rolleyes:

Dude, according to this opinion of yours I would classify you as an extremist.. Right next to the idiots blowing themselves up, only using different methods.

Hey dude, I’m a live and let live kind of guy but my nation has been attacked by terrorists several times and they say they want to destroy the US. I don’t want to talk to them, I don’t want to know why they hate me, I’m not going to bury my head up my a$$ and pretend it didn’t happen and hope they will go away. I want them dead and I don’t care how many “innocents” die to accomplish this. They allowed their regilon to be hijacked by extremists and have done nothing to remove the radicals from power, so they are gulity. If it is extreme to protect my way of life and the people I love from someone who wants to destroy me then I am an extremist. I didn’t start this fight but I’m going to finish it and if it means turning the Middle East into a giant sheet of glass so that everything I care about survives then so be it!!

It is not the role of this forum to educate. You can be bothered to read up and gain as much independant information as you can. You can hardly attempt to claim because you have not heard of something that it is not so.

I have no idea what Air America is.

I have no inkling of where I may even find Muslim propoganda, and neither do I wish to.

I do however live in a free press region and we hear press from independant international sources who cover both sides of the story.

I also plug into humanitarian sources who are on the ground.

My time at MSF was also not wasted on me in gaining a personal experience the truth suffers, when parties put their own interests before the interests of our common humanity.

For those wishing to be educated in an independant manner, would do well to use Link TV org. Sponsored by individuals and supported by the worlds free press, and winner of the Peabody award (press nobel prize).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2230076,00.html

Gaza beach explosion Israel reports inaccuracies

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150035838991&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Gaza beach explosion Israeli report findings

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1661141234372301249

Mosaic of Middle East TV coverage from June 9th. Note the different reporting priorities of the different TV stations. Note too how Lebenon TV covers the same angle as Israel and tha Hamas leader being in a training camp, compare that to the Palestinian TV pictures of the downtown area and civilan casulaties. Note too the Israel TV that reports no Israeli casulaties, and the carefull words of the IDF spokesman who says civilian targets in Israel as opposed to Civilian casulaties in Israel, because so far there had been none.

This constant tittalling, you said it first, he threw that at me, I can throw them back, is hardly adult dialogue. Mind you what do we expect, when you have prooven your mind is closed enough to accept a religeon. If it is open you have a choice of humanitarinism or criminalism.

Using the closed minds of religeon for your own criminal interests is pure evil.

You are right about the heaviest gun mounted on Israeli warships is 76mm. The Arab, oh sorry “Palestinian” family probably did trip a mine and Hamas had to cover their a$$ so the just said “Blame the Jews” a very easy cop out. As for those kids, well Hamas preaches “hate the Jews” at an early age so they can strap bombs on them as soon as they can.

Right now its easy to hate Israel and the US because of what both nations accomplished in a short period of time. Israel is the most developed nation in the Middle East while the Arab nations around them still border on third world status.
The US has become a superpower in less than 300 years while other nations that have been around for hundreds of years and their glory days are gone or they never happened. The great powers that have risen in history have done it at someone elses expense. The US ran the American Indians into the ground in its rise to power is just one example. Governments are going to do what serves their nations best interests.

Oh as for the comment of bombing Iraq into democracy. We did bomb Germany and Japan into democracy. It didn’t happen overnight it took a few years. Of course in the “got have it now” mindset in the West nation building has to be done in a day.

Dude, according to this opinion of yours I would classify you as an extremist.. Right next to the idiots blowing themselves up, only using different methods.

You are right about the heaviest gun mounted on Israeli warships is 76mm. The Arab, oh sorry “Palestinian” family probably did trip a mine and Hamas had to cover their a$$ so the just said “Blame the Jews” a very easy cop out. As for those kids, well Hamas preaches “hate the Jews” at an early age so they can strap bombs on them as soon as they can.

Right now its easy to hate Israel and the US because of what both nations accomplished in a short period of time. Israel is the most developed nation in the Middle East while the Arab nations around them still border on third world status.

The US has become a superpower in less than 300 years while other nations that have been around for hundreds of years and their glory days are gone or they never happened. The great powers that have risen in history have done it at someone elses expense. The US ran the American Indians into the ground in its rise to power is just one example.

Oh as for the comment of bombing Iraq into democracy. We did bomb Germany and Japan into democracy. The Allies made sure democratic governments were installed so they wouldn’t rise up again. They didn’t have a choice but I bet Europe is happy that Germany had a democratic government forced on them. To the victor goes the spoils that what war is all about. The loser has to take it up the a$$ and the winner is going to make sure the loser isn’t going to rise up again.

Is there anybody in this forum that has served in the military? Its seems like most folks here don’t have a understanding of war and conquest.