Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

Israelis claim the family tripped a mine planted by the PLA to prevent Israeli troops from landing on the beach.

Palestinians claim it was a 155mm shell fired from an Israeli gunboat. The problem with that story is 155mms aren’t fired from ships…they’re strictly fired from land-based howitzers. I believe the largest caliber gun the Israeli Navy has the 76mm OTO Melara.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp

Yes heard about the family. A very sad thing to happen. How exactly is it connected to hezbollah? If hezbollah strikes for palistinians, then israel wipes them out for the good non fanatic lebonese.

Israel was shelling Gaza for months before all this? And where did you hear about this? Air America? Oh you mean when they took out Hamas leadership hiding behind civilians. So what’s a few Arab, oh I mean “Palestinian” civilians dead, they are just terrorist in waiting as far as I’m concerned.

So why does the UN turn a blind eye when Israel is a victim of terror. I don’t see them condemming Hamas and Hezbollah before they hijacked the elections and bullied everyone in voting for them. Sorry in pop your balloon but Hezbollah has been blocking in the civilians to make Israel look bad and the Kool Aid drinkers out there are gulping it down by the gallons.

US law is not international law and UN law has no teeth so why should anyone obey it? Has ANYONE obeyed it?

Whats the date today? :rolleyes:

Did you heard about a family in beach who got killed by israeli shells?

or maybe that beach was not part of ghaza?

Maybe those 6 or 7 years old kids are terrorist from israeli army viewpoint.

Hey Gollevainen, what flamebait are you talking about? I asked you some questions and stated some facts and you accuse me of flaming.

Since in your mind genocide doesn’t have a body count then Finland is guilty of genocide for sending those three Jewish people to the death camps. However I’m sure those people and their families feel better because it was an accident. Some would debate what is worse committing genocide or watch it happen and doing nothing to stop it. The UN has let genocide happen on its watch all over the world and done nothing, but that’s ok with you because the UN didn’t pull the trigger, right?

The truth hurts, Europe has a history of mistreating the Jewish people. That’s probably why the Jewish people didn’t want their new state in Europe.

We finns have had our share of genosides, tough this was inour civilwar and nothing to do with anything ethinical…But back in the 41-44 we really had something else on our mind that wheap over others when we were too busy to defend our own nation. Perhpas If you yeanks and british would had helped us we wouldn’t have to go under germanys arms…but you were too busy to help another genosider so what can you say…

The UN has let genocide happen on its watch all over the world and done nothing, but that’s ok with you because the UN didn’t pull the trigger, right?

It most certainly had…like the Pol Pot incidence that you mentioned…Funniest thing in that was that it was USA who suported Pol Pot in the UN and Soviets who were agaisnt him. It was only when soviet helped Vieatnamese kicked the red khmers out of power when someone did something…So when now USA just watches from the side when Israel is bombing civilian targets, one might say history is repeating itself…

Oh and as for extreme Christian/Zionism being scary we seem pretty tolerant compared to Islam. Israel existed thousands of years before Islam existed and the Temple of Solomon was on Temple Mount before the Dome of the Rock. Israel could have knocked it down in 1967 but didn’t. As for Islamic countries how many allow you to carry a Bible or allow Christian/Jewish teaching or churches/synagogues? I don’t see the West banning Mosques or burning Korans.

In the days of the Crusades the roles were reversed. The Islamic world was tolerant of Christians and Jews in their territory and the Christian world you were either Catholic or Orthodox or you were a heretic. Jews and Muslims were persecuted.

Israel was shelling Gaza for months before all this? And where did you hear about this? Air America? Oh you mean when they took out Hamas leadership hiding behind civilians. So what’s a few Arab, oh I mean “Palestinian” civilians dead, they are just terrorist in waiting as far as I’m concerned.

So why does the UN turn a blind eye when Israel is a victim of terror. I don’t see them condemming Hamas and Hezbollah before they hijacked the elections and bullied everyone in voting for them. Sorry in pop your balloon but Hezbollah has been blocking in the civilians to make Israel look bad and the Kool Aid drinkers out there are gulping it down by the gallons.

US law is not international law and UN law has no teeth so why should anyone obey it? Has ANYONE obeyed it?

Talk about truth twisting, since when was Israel bombing Palestinians everyday before Hamas and Hezbollah grabbed those Israeli soldiers, and can you quote me the exact law that states what Israel is doing is terrorism under international law . Someone is drinking the Kool Aid.

Israel has been shelling the Gaza strip daily for months. It was a shell that killed a whole family whilst they picnicked on a beach, this was before the abduction of the Soldier by the Palestinians. They requested a trade of some of the 3000 Palestinians who have been aducted and detained in prison without trial by the Israeli authorities…. Israelis have point targetted by assination by air fired rockets of key Hamas leaders including those who were in the political arm of Hamas..often with countless civilians victims who just happened to be near where the target was passing by……..Common knowledge, gen up some.

The United States has defined terrorism under the Federal Criminal Code. Chapter 113B of Part I of Title 18 of the United States Code defines terrorism and lists the crimes associated with terrorism[6]. In Section 2331 of Chapter 113b, terrorism is defined as:

“..activities that involve violent… or life-threatening acts… that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State and… appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping;

The United Nations has defined Terrorism, or Acts of Terror with anti-terror resolutions as:

“1. Strongly condemns all acts, methods and practices of terrorism as criminal and unjustifiable, wherever and by whomsoever committed;

2. Reiterates that criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other nature that may be invoked to justify them”. (GA Res. 51/210 Measures to eliminate international terrorism)

Therefore simply by threatening to use violence you may be committing a terrorist act, ( In the Uk this includes targetting electronic entities).

Israels assinations of political leaders especially those who were in Office at the time, and their targetting by rockets fired from helicopter gunships specifically at Hamas leaders into civilian areas, therefore to assinate without trial and to cause fear in the populace or even fear within hamas, is an act of terrorism. Daily shelling at the Gaza strip to influence the population is also a terror act.

Talk about truth twisting.

Hezbollah has been blocking civilians from leaving their villages and drive up the civilian body count to make Israel look bad.

Edited to remove blocking brackets in copied text for clarity.

But for the record. This is two very important parts of the GC 1949 that are ignored by those all upset by Israelis actions:

* “Those in control of territory must endeavor to remove the civilian
population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from
the vicinity of military objects; Avoid locating military objectives within or
near densely populated areas; Take the other necessary precautions to protect
civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their
control against the dangers resulting from military operations.” (Article 58
of the Protocal Relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed
Conflicts, Geneva Convention on Warfare 1949)

* The Fourth Geneva Convention convicts Hezbollah in one
sentence. That sentence makes up the entirety of Part 3, Article 1, Section
28. It reads: “The presence of a protected person may not be used to render
certain points or areas immune from military operations.”

Hezbollah has been blocking civilians from leaving their villages and drive up the civilian body count to make Israel look bad. You have quoted international law that condems Hezbollah but those who condem Israel can’t seem to quote the law that Israel is breaking. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Suflanker45

What extreme Chrisitian views do you have a problem with? What book are you refering to the Bible or Koran? You condem Christian views in your very first sentence are you also condeming extreme Muslim views? How about those extreme Muslims that have hijacked Islam and keep their people locked in the past? How do you expect to reason with them? Since you don’t seem to be a fan of religion would you convert to Islam if that would make them happy and leave you and your nation alone. Will you have a problem treating women like properity, drink no booze at all and do away with any porn? Are you ready to do that so you can have peace?

The extreme Christian views I have a problem with together with the problem I have with extreme Muslim views (if you had cared to quote further) are the ones based out daily by state media and TV that bounce the fine line between devotism and the SIN religeon (Send In Notes). Fundamental Christianity and the influence it holds on the current administration is scary to say the least, that the biblebelt brigade were targetted as political allies, add that to the growing zionism and religeous schooling in the USA, it is even scarier.

I refer to the Koran, the Bible, Holy Scriptures, Dead Sea Scrolls and Golden Tablets. The notion that our future rests in a book is absurd.

I did not condem christian views, I said I considered them, and hoped they did not indeed steer policy. Quote factually please. I also followed that with a comment on the current impass of the polarised viewpoints, so yes I was equally considering both christian and Muslim views, not condeming either, except in their extremist forms.

As to your comments about me being a fan of religeon or otherwise, these are entirely farcical. I note your concept of religion to be quite way out and your concept of what reverting to Islam would entail, as being extremism on the Homer scale.

If reverting to Islam meant treating women like properity, drink no booze at all and do away with any porn, then maybe I just could go as far as stuffing dollar bills into stocking tops, fueled only by lemonaide just so long as I dont touch, but I may need a gentle shoulder tap by the lap dance club bouncers to point me on my knees 6 times a day.

Good job your eyes did not fathom the irony of talking about evolutionary jumps and the good bible in the same sentence.

Fade to the sounds of horsehooves into the sunset,

“well is was good film, but I did not get the bit were she had to choose between being God for the Christians or being Allah for the Muslims,?” – “Well she would have been 800 years older by now and work work work 6 days for a whole planet, sheesh – or spend the rest of hers days living in the desert,……..”

I think quoting democracy and recognising another states right to exist, are two entirely different issues, but we get used to the truth being twisted here.

Therefore the current chest puffing, the bombing and shelling of the Palestinian people is simply for political gain, and that under international law IS TERRORISM. state run terrorism, and backed and fully supported by the US.

As we know when faced with terryists, you have the right to defend yourself, and maybe by talking a hostage or two, the militant factions of Hamas thought they could halt the daily shelling of Palestinian families on a beach picnic

Talk about truth twisting, since when was Israel bombing Palestinians everyday before Hamas and Hezbollah grabbed those Israeli soldiers, and can you quote me the exact law that states what Israel is doing is terrorism under international law :rolleyes: . Someone is drinking the Kool Aid.

I think quoting democracy and recognising another states right to exist, are two entirely different issues, but we get used to the truth being twisted here.

Ok the UN has agreed that Israel can exist.
Ok Palestinian governments have accepted Israels right to exist, many many times before, but it made no difference that the last Government did.

So why is it so important a request now ?

There are some elements within the Hamas movement, that do recognise that Israel exists, but there are elements within Hamas that do not agree. Hands up those that miss the point about a democracy, or does the US and Israel insist democracy no longer means the majority but it has to be unaminous.

What the current Hamas leaders will not do, is to make the simple statement that Israel has the right to exist, when it is demanded of it. By demanding it, Israel and the US are playing the political ploy, both for support at home and as a double edged sword against Hamas.

Hamas like any political organisation has its factions and elements and internal politics. Even the power struggle within the current Israeli leadership is a part of this recent bravado. It is ploy to demand something that it is known Hamas are unable to deliver, without causing it great internal power struggle. A ploy because if they do, they will be hounded by the Palestinians, ( Israelis gain) and if they dont they get bombed. ( Israelis gain)

Therefore the current chest puffing, the bombing and shelling of the Palestinian people is simply for political gain, and that under international law IS TERRORISM. state run terrorism, and backed and fully supported by the US.

As we know when faced with terryists, you have the right to defend yourself, and maybe by talking a hostage or two, the militant factions of Hamas thought they could halt the daily shelling of Palestinian families on a beach picnic.

If the recognition of Israel is such a fundamental legal case for the shelling and bombing persuasion, how do you argue the case of Taiwan, a Nation of proud people with a fervent democracy, never been invaded or conquered, yet still a single member of the UN security council can insist it actually does NOT exist even today, as a free nation, and a nation where the US President nearly dares not mention let alone tread. Hardly gives the case of “We MUST have a recognise Israel statement before we can negotiate” any credibility whatsoever does it. I do not see a refusal to do buisness with China simply because it does not recognise a sovereign nation, with geological and wet borders.

Afafat was offered Jerusalem and walked away back when Clinton was in office selling out Israel to get his Nobel Peace Prize. That shows me how much the Arabs want peace with Israel.

Quote:
“Occupation of what? They withdrew from Southern Lebanon, Gaza and part of the West Bank years ago. Do you want them to withdraw from their country as well? “
————————————————————————–

Problem is with that “Part” and of course Jerusalem.
After this war, the only think that garantie peace on ME is state of palestine, with all Gaza, with all West bank, and with East part of Jerusalem+ 9000 Palestinians free from Isreal jailes+ Golan hight to Sirya

Hey Gollevainen, what flamebait are you talking about? I asked you some questions and stated some facts and you accuse me of flaming.

Since in your mind genocide doesn’t have a body count then Finland is guilty of genocide for sending those three Jewish people to the death camps. However I’m sure those people and their families feel better because it was an accident. Some would debate what is worse committing genocide or watch it happen and doing nothing to stop it. The UN has let genocide happen on its watch all over the world and done nothing, but that’s ok with you because the UN didn’t pull the trigger, right?

The truth hurts, Europe has a history of mistreating the Jewish people. That’s probably why the Jewish people didn’t want their new state in Europe.

Can anyone else explain why it is okay to bomb Iraq into democracy yet when the neighbors of Israel use their democratic process, they get bombed too ?

Perhaps you think that having an election obsolves you from
from following international law? hizzbulah and hamas were elected
democraticly, they both don’t recoginize Israel’s right to exist
or any agreement that was sign with Israel or approved by the UN
regarding Israel.

Can anyone give an example of where fundamentalist groups, such as Al Takfir Wal Hijra, have as succesfully recruited from non war-torn or occupied or oppressed or poverty stricken areas of the world ?

Your question is the reason the war on terror hasn’t been won.
As long as money and fundametalist teaching are spread around the world;
new terrorist and new cells will keep poping up everywere.
there is a belief in the west that in the Arab country it’s only
a handfull of preechers and lunatic that hate the west and Jews,
however their (government contriolled media) newspaperes, TV, and
televised cermons call for vilance and teach hate on daily basis to the masses. Click here to see for your self.

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=15

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=57

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=75

When one considers the fundamentalist and extreme chrsitian views and mind sets that are running the US administration and funding most of the Republican party,

How many more jumps in evolution will it take for humans to realise their fate in the future does not come from a book written way back in the past.

What extreme Chrisitian views do you have a problem with? What book are you refering to the Bible or Koran? You condem Christian views in your very first sentence are you also condeming extreme Muslim views? How about those extreme Muslims that have hijacked Islam and keep their people locked in the past? How do you expect to reason with them? Since you don’t seem to be a fan of religion would you convert to Islam if that would make them happy and leave you and your nation alone. Will you have a problem treating women like properity, drink no booze at all and do away with any porn? Are you ready to do that so you can have peace?

Occupation of what? They withdrew from Southern Lebanon, Gaza and part of the West Bank years ago. Do you want them to withdraw from their country as well? Will Finland take them in? How about any other country in Europe will the EU let the Jews in like they let the Muslims in and give them all kinds of benefits?

However I doubt the EU will take them in because Europe has a very long and nasty history of anti-semitism that goes back to the Middle Ages.

or You meaned the three jews we sended to Auswitch??? After serious investigation it was declared as accident that they were sended there at the first place……but then again, what does the antisemitism has anything to do whit this?? You are not implying that out of any other meaningfull arguments, you fall into the old zionists mishapp of accusing anyone israel critisor as antisemitist…..man thats so low that I doupt that even you would fall into that trap…sure you are clewer and inteligent guy above that :p

When the death toll reaches the millions then you can call it genocide. Like the millions that have died in Africa from famine and warfare and the UN just watches or the millions that died under Pol Pot or the millions that died in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany (Jew, Gypises, Slavs, Homosexuals other that didn’t fit in with the master race.) You remember Nazi Germany, Finland was their ally and used the Swastka on their tanks and planes.

Last time i checked the word genozide didn’t have any offical death roll tapped to its label in order to justificy it use. I find it pretty amusing and yet somewhat sad of you throwing out historical details out of its context (and out of sense as you but it “UN watching next to nazis slaughtering jews…” 😉 ) and use it to blur the issue into something more close to nonsense than actual depate…..

But You’ll have your own way….Im too tired to enter your flamebait this time…So you find someone else to whipe the foam out of your mouth… :diablo:

I knew that the swastika pre-dates the Nazi Party. I stand corrected about Finland’s use of it. However thanks to what the Nazi’s did the swastika is now persona non grada.

You remember Nazi Germany, Finland was their ally and used the Swastka on their tanks and planes.

On a point of historical accuracy, suflanker45, the Finns use of the swastika as an emblem on their tanks and planes had nothing whatsoever to do with the Nazis or with fascism and actually pre-dates the foundation of the German Nazi party.

The blue swastika was a widespread good luck symbol used for centuries in that part of the world, and was the family emblem of Swedish Count Eric von Rosen, who donated the first plane to the Finnish White Army during the Finnish Civil War.

– In 1962 and 1963, several German scientists working on missile project in Egypt were targets of assassination attempts by Mossad.
– In March 1990 Gerald Bull, a Canadian scientist who worked on a weapons project for Iraq was killed by the Mossad at his Brussels apartment
– In 1974 Mossad agents mistakenly killed an Algerian waiter, Ahmad Boushiki in Lillehammer, Norway.
– In 1982, the Mossad assassinated Egyptian nuclear scientist Yahya al-Mashad in Paris

Where’s your proof? Did Mossad leave their “death card” on the bodies. If the 1974 attack came from the aftermath of the Munich Oylimpics I’ll give you that but the others? When was Gerald Bull’s death solved. Last I heard the case was never solved? Saddam may have had him killed so no one else would get the supergun he was working on.