Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

Of cause bombing is the main problem there and is inflicted daily by groups with dubious motivations. Do those carry M-16s or AK-47s?!

Glad you finally see the point, they carry both M-16’s and AK-47’s.

AK 47 to the head – dont vote it is a western ploy to make you eat pork.

AK 47 to the head – dont vote for any of the other 2.

AK 47 to the head – dont vote it means a will other than Allahs.

M-16 to the head – Vote we just bombed you into democracy vote for our approved governement only, vote for any of the 3 above and we will bomb them out of you.

With all the heated blood flowing around the Middle East among the radical fringe and the growing throngs they influence, it’s hard to envision everyone over there ever saying “Hooray, we won”

Again to a certain extent this is a broad generalisation, it is to be noted that it is just the minority fringe misguided extremists in this society, the majority of muslims live their lives entirely in peace and the majority are not Arabs.

But you recognise the growing throngs and it is precisely that, that has ordinary people who are otherwise apolitical spending time writing in anger about the hypocracy and double standards being displayed by the US and Israel in defiance of the democratic world opinion, for this duplicity is fuelling the recruitement efforts not only of the terrryists but of the fundamentalist and extremist views.

Every one rule for them and one rule for us we display with impunity, we reinforce the twisted misguided idealism that has this world on the brink of this latest holocaust.

I lay the blame firmly and squarely at the feet of Mr Bush senior and his CIA cronies who thought it wise to support Islamic extremists and terryists for their own ends in the protection of their own oil interests in the middle east in support of their own puppet dictator despot the Shah of Iran and later against their perceived enemy the USSR.

When I look at the WMD issue, I always ask myself, when the US sold these weapons and weapons technology to Sadman Insane just whom did the US think it would have been okay for him to have used them against, The US ally Iran, Iraqs own people or the possibly the US backed Islamic extremists that were taking over Iran and Afganistan. Who ?

Of course these elements were in place and will remain in place no matter what we do or the CIA did, but it is the sudden increase in the growing throngs that is the current danger that threatens to tip the balance.

When a kid can grow up in the middle of a western society and still be brainwashed into a suicide bomber due to fundamentalism, then we had better sit up and find the true root cause and pretty damn quick.

Being intolerant by claiming the other side does not recognise the notion of tolerance just further fuels the inferno.

IMHO.

Exactly that is the point. Democracy does not mean you can do everything, on the one hand bomb a nation into democratic existance, if you turn around and then bomb another country for precisely exercising that democratic right. Just imagine what the expensivley liberated people of iraq will feel when they go to the polls, hell bombed if we do and bombed if we dont. Why leave at all, just make them vote with the M16 at their heads. The only difference here is the lack of black bushey moustaches and jackboots.

Interesting you actually dare quote the UN when talking about Israel and the USA, neither one has accepted any UN resolution whatsoever since the beginning of the UN that has any sort of critisism or rebuke for Israel. Not one single UN resolution has ever got through the US vote. OH of course democracy US style just so long as they get their own way. The pure hollywood nonsense of pretending to honor international law when trying to eek out any excuse to go get Sadman Insane, Typical double talk with forked tongue US diplomacy, by bombing without UN agreement because the other guy went against UN agreements. What a lesson in restraint to the lunatic with the RPG.

International law is another fine topic to bring up too. Good point about mixing up national interests and international law. How about dragging in family oil interests and VP corporate interests, how about ignoring Saudi interests – sorry I meant Saudi human rights and terrorist funding interests, doh I mean oil. how about dragging selling arms to both Iran and Iraq interests, or funding Islamic terrorist camps, good old Osama Bin stick the ruskies some good old US of A international law interests.

If they had not trampled all over the very concepts of both democracy and abiding by international law, then you may find some justification in it, but not when it is disregarded with complete impunity.

The hypocracy is deafening here.

The injustice puts the whole fabric of the west to shame.

I like the oft quoted hiding amongst the civilians, hell even the UK has its own Whitehall in downtown London, You dont need a uniform to live in Washington. Hezzbollah politically was a part of the Lebonese democratic process, bound to have their offices in the CBD of Beirut. By collective punishment of the Palestinians and Lebonese for voting in the Hamas or Hezzbollah, you declare them as legitimate targets, therefore you are unable to indignantly cry when rockets hit the very same civilians entity that voted in Israel.

The difference is one has a minority of war minded people uncontrolled by the goverment and the other a war minded goverment controlled by the majority of the people. Now who should be the legitimate civilian targets.

I am not saying what the Jihadists are doing is correct, it is abhorant and unjustifyable, but so is the wanton destruction of collective punishment for what amounts to no more than your own political and intollerant failings.

Which part of the people of Iraq you speak about? The majority the Shiites, the Kurds or the Sunnits. Of cause bombing is the main problem there and is inflicted daily by groups with dubious motivations. Do those carry M-16s or AK-47s?!

I’m having trouble following you, but I think I got the jist of most of your post.

By “tend their crops”, the picture I had in mind was taken directly from what I see here in the U.S. when I travel cross country. People I see have their homestead, their livelyhood, their family, and all is well in the world. We had our interrnal civil war years ago, one side capitulated, and there has never been a recurrence ever again based on that old divide. We forgave our differences and forged on as a unified country. You’ll never hear about people from the Southern US killing people from the Northern US because of old Civil War differences. 🙂

By using this image in contrast to all the symptomatic tribal in-fighting I see all across the Middle East, I was trying to make a point that an ideology that does not recognize forgiveness as a righteous virtue seems obviously doomed (in my opinion) to perpetual violence. With all the heated blood flowing around the Middle East among the radical fringe and the growing throngs they influence, it’s hard to envision everyone over there ever saying “Hooray, we won” and going back to the normalcy of common family living if Israel was ever actually destroyed. Not when the very fabric of everyday living is seen as “destroying all who defy Allah’s will”. There will still be the “infidelity” of Europe and the West which history shows is already incentive enough to keep the Jihadist movement thriving.

When you can’t forgive the past, everything about your existence becomes a time capsule of hindsight, hatred and bad blood. Unless forgiveness is seen as a righteous commodity, a society is doomed to become nothing more than a boiling pot of hatred, violence and lust for neverending revenge.

As far as virgins go, I don’t view heaven or paradise as a place of the flesh. If you’re speaking symbolically that’s one thing, but IMO too many suicide bombers have met their deaths thinking it was a sure fire way to score with the ladies. 😉

How do you reach a truce with a philosophic base that worships greed and dominance, that has at every opportunity exploited and destroyed any existing populace or civilisation in its path. One that uses local conflict to fuel its own greedy agenda, one that funds the terrorist if he can be persuaded to go against his enemy, one who funds and fuels both enemy and alley together, whilst laughing at the destruction they do to each other.

I guess thats it then. No hope at all.

If we have to simply accept that whilst we like a society for ourselves where we can feel secure and safe and friendly with our neighbor, others may not deserve that, because they are different and too far remote from us. If we in fear of our security and safety can destroy the security and safety of others, then we should just be happy with our lot. If we get hit by the odd stray bomb or act of random terror, so be it, after all it is our chosen way in life.

If we accept we will never be able to live side by side with another in peace, why draw the line at simple infedels or fundamenalists extreme or otherwise. Arent the Catholics and Buddists good for more fight yet, what about the moroms in Salt Lake or the kurds who can afford to drive, must be criminals. What about him, the guy covered in that oil coloured skin, he must have oil in his back yard, lets just go grab it, we can beat his wife say he did it, kill them quick, that will make it ok.

Rob Mears has some good points, but it is domineering and arrogant to use the term ‘tend their crops’. And if we are just as bad as them, I’ll supply your 74 virgins, what flavour would you like, after all we now can get every flavour ever made.

Exactly that is the point. Democracy does not mean you can do everything, on the one hand bomb a nation into democratic existance, if you turn around and then bomb another country for precisely exercising that democratic right. Just imagine what the expensivley liberated people of iraq will feel when they go to the polls, hell bombed if we do and bombed if we dont. Why leave at all, just make them vote with the M16 at their heads. The only difference here is the lack of black bushey moustaches and jackboots.

Interesting you actually dare quote the UN when talking about Israel and the USA, neither one has accepted any UN resolution whatsoever since the beginning of the UN that has any sort of critisism or rebuke for Israel. Not one single UN resolution has ever got through the US vote. OH of course democracy US style just so long as they get their own way. The pure hollywood nonsense of pretending to honor international law when trying to eek out any excuse to go get Sadman Insane, Typical double talk with forked tongue US diplomacy, by bombing without UN agreement because the other guy went against UN agreements. What a lesson in restraint to the lunatic with the RPG.

International law is another fine topic to bring up too. Good point about mixing up national interests and international law. How about dragging in family oil interests and VP corporate interests, how about ignoring Saudi interests – sorry I meant Saudi human rights and terrorist funding interests, doh I mean oil. how about dragging selling arms to both Iran and Iraq interests, or funding Islamic terrorist camps, good old Osama Bin stick the ruskies some good old US of A international law interests.

If they had not trampled all over the very concepts of both democracy and abiding by international law, then you may find some justification in it, but not when it is disregarded with complete impunity.

The hypocracy is deafening here.

The injustice puts the whole fabric of the west to shame.

I like the oft quoted hiding amongst the civilians, hell even the UK has its own Whitehall in downtown London, You dont need a uniform to live in Washington. Hezzbollah politically was a part of the Lebonese democratic process, bound to have their offices in the CBD of Beirut. By collective punishment of the Palestinians and Lebonese for voting in the Hamas or Hezzbollah, you declare them as legitimate targets, therefore you are unable to indignantly cry when rockets hit the very same civilians entity that voted in Israel.

The difference is one has a minority of war minded people uncontrolled by the goverment and the other a war minded goverment controlled by the majority of the people. Now who should be the legitimate civilian targets.

I am not saying what the Jihadists are doing is correct, it is abhorant and unjustifyable, but so is the wanton destruction of collective punishment for what amounts to no more than your own political and intollerant failings.

So again we are (or least I am, don’t really remember whom I was agaisnt the last time) getting to the only solution for this whole issue…stop violence…someone has to make the first step and apparently Israels are just too arrogant and stubborn to do it…Because they are the ones doing the ultimate reason for all this violence, the occupation. To end it, the one doing it needs to step down (and this means real stepping down, not some charity pieces) in this case Israel. Of course you can go and say “but that wont stop the terrorism..” but it’s the only way. Of course there will be some sort of terrorism for awhile (mostly frustration for the fact that there is nothiong more to fight on as your whole life was build around that fight), but it will dry out as there is no reason for majority of palestinians to support the extremist any longer.

As you alluded to ,the entirety of Islam in the Middle East seems to essentially define itself around the necessary destruction of Israel. Add up the area of all the countries who forge their very identity on the destruction of this perceived “occupation” verus the size of the land in question. I’d say the contested land is roughly 1% (or less) of the overall Middle Eastern land mass, yet the entire region lives in continuous upheaval over this miniscule compromise in real estate.

I personally think it’s a joke to believe that Iran, Syria, et al would simply go about tending their crops after the theoretical fall of Israel. Their provocation of the “infidels” would continue for the very reasons you mentioned – needing to continue the fight to maintain their sense of identity. Add to that the fact that Islam does not exactly uphold forgivness as one of its righteous virtues, and you’re left with a formula for unending mayhem until all the world bows to Allah, or is otherwise slaughtered as infidels. Plenty of radical Islamic leaders have professed just as much, and plenty of Islamic political leaders have remained virtually silent rather than denounce such proclamations. There is so much hate of the West and so little philosophical capacity for forgiveness among Islam; there’s no doubt in my mind that the festering grudge is set to simmer and boil until the end of time. How do you reach a truce with a philosophic base that does not forgive? Obviously you can’t, and because of this, the conflict in the Middle East will forever remain the festering pit of hell that it is – all in the name of God, ironically.

Can anyone else explain why it is okay to bomb Iraq into democracy yet when the neighbors of Israel use their democratic process, they get bombed too ?

How can the West stand up and claim they Lebonese or Palestinians or Iraqis should not vote for the political arm of terrorist groups, when the west embraces and deals all the time with terrorist groups in South America the Middle East and even in Europe, and some have even been militarily backed and helped into ‘democratic’ power.

Can anyone explain why with just using very recent examples of the success rate of bombing submission into the Taliban or of bombing Shia’s and Sunni’s into submission in Iraq, anyone still believes that bombing of Hizzbollah will produce the required result ?

Can anyone give an example of where fundamentalist groups, such as Al Takfir Wal Hijra, have as succesfully recruited from non war-torn or occupied or oppressed or poverty stricken areas of the world ?

I was going to ask can anyone explain why it is, perfectly normal young men are able to be persuaded that strapping a nail bomb to their heads and walking onto a crowded train, is a sensible thing to do, but I wont becasue some lunatic may try to justify it.

Democracy does not mean you can do everything. It is something more than just voting. As an UN-member and sovereign country you are committed to respect international law for example. Here are the most problems to face, when countries try to split between national intrest and international law.
Non is committed to like his neighbour, but none is allowed to question the existense of his neighbour. If you have some special problems, the UN for examples offers institutions to negotiate that problems. That is the problem with Lebanon right now. The UN solved the border issue with Israel, despite that an armed fraction in Lebanon, questioned the existense of that neighbour in general. That can be accepted as long as that is kept to the politics only. If that is a good idea to be hostile that way is another question, but covered by the right of free opinion.

Border skirmishes are another level. The Lebanese may look to Syria, which kept their border quiet for decades, despite occupied Golan or Lebanon 1982. The Syrian Government is clever enough to solve that problem through negotiations in the long-run, like Egypt or Jordan. Despite its withdrawl of armed troops Syria has still intrests in Lebanon, because it never abbonnded the idea, that Lebanon is a former part of it. Syria has a problem too, it is in the need of support from Iran and both share a common enemy Israel since 1980. Syria is not intrested in a Lebanon ruled by Hezbollah, which is not compatible with the ruler-ship of the Syrian Baath Party. As long as there is a common enemy, none have any intrest, to show the local voters their real intrests. So the Lebanese people may learn to claim, what is good for Lebanon is good for the Arab world too and not the other way around.
So far to start border-skirmishes is no good idea for Lebanon as the TV-pictures show it to all and that something is wrong with the own politics.

Can anyone else explain why it is okay to bomb Iraq into democracy yet when the neighbors of Israel use their democratic process, they get bombed too ?

How can the West stand up and claim they Lebonese or Palestinians or Iraqis should not vote for the political arm of terrorist groups, when the west embraces and deals all the time with terrorist groups in South America the Middle East and even in Europe, and some have even been militarily backed and helped into ‘democratic’ power.

Can anyone explain why with just using very recent examples of the success rate of bombing submission into the Taliban or of bombing Shia’s and Sunni’s into submission in Iraq, anyone still believes that bombing of Hizzbollah will produce the required result ?

Can anyone give an example of where fundamentalist groups, such as Al Takfir Wal Hijra, have as succesfully recruited from non war-torn or occupied or oppressed or poverty stricken areas of the world ?

I was going to ask can anyone explain why it is, perfectly normal young men are able to be persuaded that strapping a nail bomb to their heads and walking onto a crowded train, is a sensible thing to do, but I wont becasue some lunatic may try to justify it.

Moderator Comment

I’m not a moderator, but I would like to suggest that flex297 and Sens try to maintain some courtesy.

Well, I am a moderator, and I agree with Viper01 100%.

Be warned, chaps. I do not propose to stand idly by and allow you two to inflict your private squabbles on the rest of the membership for very much longer.

Discuss the subject at hand and take your personal bickering elsewhere, please.

GA

I’m not a moderator, but I would like to suggest that flex297 and Sens try to maintain some courtesy.

I don’t know exactly what Israeli civilians go through either and I can’t say I would like to live in the area with the threat of some nut job walking into the local mall and blowing himself up always in the back of my mind…..

The casaualties are very regrettable, and despite what the other side will say, I don’t see the Israelis specifically targeting the Lebanese civilian population. What do they have to gain by it? It’s called collateral damage. It’s very tragic and unfortunate, but it’s the truth……

I completely agree.

targets that are part of terrorist infrastructure. Unfortuantely because the Lebanese themselves weren’t able to get rid of Hezbollah or at least disarm them, then many targets in the country are used to aid in terrorist operations.

I’m not too comfortable with the potential objectives behind those early interdiction strikes which were directed at e.g. road intersections, bridges etc. I’d be surprised if they actually made much of a difference for Hizbollah’s mobility in southern Lebanon.

Nobody wants civilian casualties, but when you’re fighting people who use civilians as shields then casaulties are to be expected.

Indeed.

You can’t defeat the enemy by limiting yourself in the fight.

This one is a bit relative. I’ve already tried to explain why.

A ground invasion seems to be very strongly opposed by most people, and yet that seems to be the most efficient way of getting rid of the terrorists……

I don’t think the Israelis have much of a choice. OEF and OIF should be enough to prove that combined operations is the (temporary) answer on how to fight terrorists, rebels etc. operating in densely populated civilian environments.

So let’s look at this situation……

Israel hits terrorist targets from the air in an attempt to degrade Hezbollah’s forces so that they can offer little resistance. Some civilian casualties are reported, and all of a sudden they should stop their operations completely…..

Okay so we go to the ground forces option……..nobody seems to want that and even Lebanon has said they will fight the Israelis if that happens…..

So Israel stops that potential operation……and what happens?

They won’t, but I see your point.

Hezbollah continues their operations simply lobbing rockets and other such munitions into Israel and yet the world says Israel isn’t allowed to retaliate.

Am I the only one that finds something wrong with this conclusion?

As I’ve perceived things, “the world” does not maintain a single, unilateral opinion on this issue. Different words have been voiced. However, many seem to be very worried about the extent of collateral damage caused as a result of Israeli air operations.

The planes Israel are using are they two seater’s F16? 😎

James

Both, two and single seaters.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Care to show us better example?

Why?

Originally Posted by flex297
I was in Tunisia maybe five times and, frankly, know nothing about what people think and do there..

The planes Israel are using are they two seater’s F16? 😎

James

Here it works, because you have diplomatic relationships with Indonesia and no important part of the population there is questioning the existense of your country really. So a intresting example in itself, but of little help, when it comes to Lebanon 2006!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Care to show us better example?

war is always the last option, not the only one. because if so, why do the international comunities bothering to send troops to this region while the only solution were bombing Lebanon all over?

i dont live in Israel. but my government faces some situation smilar to this. Our main transportation route, the Strait of Malacca is not a safe one. There are thousands of pirates, who are based in the Isles of Indonesia, wandering around, ready to kill and rob any ship that get by. that doesnt leave my government the only option to fly our Su-30MKKs to bomb Indonesia. In fact, we rely on Indonesia government and association of south east asian nations to solve the problem. we help the Indonesian goverment to raise the living standard there to make pirate not the only career to live on. things do not change dramatically, there are still killings, but it does make progress. and we believe someday the Strait of Malacca will be a pirate-less strait.

Here it works, because you have diplomatic relationships with Indonesia and no important part of the population there is questioning the existense of your country really. So a intresting example in itself, but of little help, when it comes to Lebanon 2006!

Because Arabs, and Muslims in general, are evil to the maxwhile the Israelis are angels.

not angels, just the chosen ones 😉

Okay let me clarify my earlier series of remarks. I came off as very hostile, but here’s what I mean:

First of all I don’t condone the killing of any civilian anywhere, including all Arabs. I would never want to do it myself, and I don’t think it’s right for anyone else to do so.

Point taken..

With all of that being said I would still feel incredibly uncomfortable in the ME simply becuase I’m an American. As xenophobic as it may sound, I would feel that way and I feel that most people in the region would not consider me a welcome visitor. Whatever their reasons for that, right or wrong, I feel that would likely be the case.

I still think that most Arabs you’d meet would treat you according to your own treatment towards them. There probably would be a certain tension at the very beginning but in the end it would only matter how would you represent yourself – as an American or as a human in the first place? With the former, they would treat you as Arabs, with the latter as humans. Of course there are extremists, but don’t you have some in Texas, too?

With all of this being said, I still feel that Israel is not the victim in this like so many of you are making them out to be. They’ve pulled out of various places from over the years, and the only thing they ever seem to get in return is more violence.

True..

The capture of the soldiers is most definitely not the only reason the Israelis are going after Hezbollah, but it was just the excuse they needed, and personally I don’t fault them for it. I feel they have a right to defend themselves, and I completely support everything they are doing. They are not specifically targeting civilians, but this is war and casualties will happen. You simply cannot avoid it, and to assume so is being naive.

Hezbollah by contrast is specifically hitting civilian targets and they are even using Lebanese civilians essentially as human shields. So obviously when the Israelis retaliate, what do you think the outcome will be?

I agree here..

So Israel should stop their offensive right? If that happens, then the terrorists have won. They have proven they can simply get their way by putting a gun to someone’s head (speaking figuratively of course). What else can the Israelis do but continue to hit terrorist targets and infrastructure while trying to minimize civilian casaualties. They know civilians casualties are a very bad thing, and they are doing their best to minimize them, but it’s hard.

I disagree here.. Even if Israelis managed to target every single Hezbollah member, the civilian casulaties (which are inevitable, I admit) would raise reasons for another generation of terrorists, grouped under some different name. The only way to win over terrorists is to take away their support – ergo to give no reasons to civilians to support extremist ideas.

In a nutshell, the Israelis must retaliate because sitting idly by and/or trying to “negotiate” with terrorists is letting them win and allowing them to restock their weapons aresenals.

As I said, this retaliation only produces more hate.. and more terrorists. Simple fighters will die but the men in the background can celebrate and look forward to new crowd of supporters.. Is that what you wanted to achieve?

I’m curious Flex as to what you think the Isrealis should do to get suicide bombers to stop terrorizing their citizens. Apparently in your mind all of this is their fault, so what do you propose they do to fix it? Personally I don’t see anyway short of bullets and bombs into terrorist heads……

It is very complicated… and also very simple.. just like with a marriage that has been broken.. How can you mend it and get your woman back? 1.. First, you need to want her to come back at all.. 2. You need to make an approach.. 3. You need to be willing to make some sort of compromise.. 4. You need to quit beating her in first place..

Call me a weenie liberal, but the only way to solve this problem is a long-term diplomatic one. Israelis are the stronger side in this situation, they should make the first move, approach Palestinian and Lebanese non-extremic parties, provide support and solutions to civilian problems and keep people busy, so they don’t have time to think about stupidities like blowing themselves up. What about Israeli companies investing in Palestine and create first 1,000 jobs? Is it crazy? Yes, but this is a solution. I can guarantee you that the first 1,000 Palestinians who find at least a moderately paid job there will be the first 1,000 ones who will lose many reasons to fight.

Another solution is hardline. Eradicate them.. Flatten the whole Palestine out in one attack and then wait some 20 years until resulting sanctions are expired and some 50-60 years until it is forgotten.

I can guarantee you both solutions will work.. Pick one..

Why are people having such a hard time with the fact that these terrorist attacks wont stop until Israel ends its occupation…

Because Arabs, and Muslims in general, are evil to the max:Dwhile the Israelis are angels.

Why are people having such a hard time with the fact that these terrorists won’t stop until Israel is destroyed.

Why are people having such a hard time with the fact that these terrorist attacks wont stop until Israel ends its occupation…