Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

So what you’re saying is that it’s Israel’s fault Lebanon isn’t the best place to work and thus Hezbollah fighters would be more likely to get normal jobs if the Israelis pumped aid into Lebanon?

we believe someday the Strait of Malacca will be a pirate-less strait.

It’s likely wishful thinking…….normal people like you and I will never understand what goes on in the head of a terrorist or a pirate or whoever else exists purely to cause chaos and problems.

You have to remember that we are dealing with terrorists whose only goal is the destruction of the state of Israel. Anything less than this is unacceptable to them. Talking won’t work, agreements won’t work, a simple cease fire won’t help, so what else is left?

Why are people having such a hard time with the fact that these terrorists won’t stop until Israel is destroyed.

Convenient statement ELP when you don’t live in Israel and thus have no idea what their people are going through everyday……If your nation’s neighbor starts hitting you with rockets and other such weapons yet uses civilians as their shields what are you going to do?

war is always the last option, not the only one. because if so, why do the international comunities bothering to send troops to this region while the only solution were bombing Lebanon all over?

i dont live in Israel. but my government faces some situation smilar to this. Our main transportation route, the Strait of Malacca is not a safe one. There are thousands of pirates, who are based in the Isles of Indonesia, wandering around, ready to kill and rob any ship that get by. that doesnt leave my government the only option to fly our Su-30MKKs to bomb Indonesia. In fact, we rely on Indonesia government and association of south east asian nations to solve the problem. we help the Indonesian goverment to raise the living standard there to make pirate not the only career to live on. things do not change dramatically, there are still killings, but it does make progress. and we believe someday the Strait of Malacca will be a pirate-less strait.

Convenient statement ELP when you don’t live in Israel and thus have no idea what their people are going through everyday……If your nation’s neighbor starts hitting you with rockets and other such weapons yet uses civilians as their shields what are you going to do?

I don’t know exactly what Israeli civilians go through either and I can’t say I would like to live in the area with the threat of some nut job walking into the local mall and blowing himself up always in the back of my mind…..

The casaualties are very regrettable, and despite what the other side will say, I don’t see the Israelis specifically targeting the Lebanese civilian population. What do they have to gain by it? It’s called collateral damage. It’s very tragic and unfortunate, but it’s the truth……

They are hittings targets that are either terrorists themselves or targets that are part of terrorist infrastructure. Unfortuantely because the Lebanese themselves weren’t able to get rid of Hezbollah or at least disarm them, then many targets in the country are used to aid in terrorist operations.

Nobody wants civilian casualties, but when you’re fighting people who use civilians as shields then casaulties are to be expected.

You can’t defeat the enemy by limiting yourself in the fight. War is hell, and you must take all measures necessary to win it……especially in Israel’s case because they have no other choice. The very existence of their country has depended on the ability of their military to crush any and all agression against them ever since 1948.

A ground invasion seems to be very strongly opposed by most people, and yet that seems to be the most efficient way of getting rid of the terrorists……

So let’s look at this situation……

Israel hits terrorist targets from the air in an attempt to degrade Hezbollah’s forces so that they can offer little resistance. Some civilian casualties are reported, and all of a sudden they should stop their operations completely…..

Okay so we go to the ground forces option……..nobody seems to want that and even Lebanon has said they will fight the Israelis if that happens…..

So Israel stops that potential operation……and what happens?

Hezbollah continues their operations simply lobbing rockets and other such munitions into Israel and yet the world says Israel isn’t allowed to retaliate.

Am I the only one that finds something wrong with this conclusion?

IDF must be having some effect. The number of rockets falling in northern Israel has dropped from 700/day to less than 200/day. When it gets to 0/day, I suspect the IDF will pull back.

Look at the number of dead militants compared to dead Israeli soldiers in conflicts among them and I think you’ll see that the militants don’t stand a chance. Of course it never hurts that those idiots also blow themselves up…..makes it that much easier to exterminate them like the cockroaches they are. The best part is when a suicide bomber blows himself up but doesn’t kill anyone. I wonder if he gets his 40 virgins….lol.

SOC, you say the raid was overseen by the head of Hamas and yet I have people questioning why I wouldn’t take the Palestinian “government” seriously…..they are terrorists. I hope for their sake that the Palestinian civilians can learn this and kick out those militaristic idiots that are representing them.

Until then, nobody, especially Israel, will take them seriously. They are a joke.

Hopefully Syria doesn’t get too involved in all of this either or they will lose yet another conflict to the Israelis.

IDF certainly is showing Hezbolah a thing or two. A small number of Hez KIA and scores and scores of dead Lebonese civilans now into the hundreds…and punishing a whole country. Wow. Real heros there. IDF has done some smart ops in the past. However I am not on board with the endless killing of hundreds of Lebonese civilians that had little or nothing to do with this. Dumb op.

Luckily for me I have never seen heard or read any piece of Hezbollah propaganda, I cant understand Arabic nor do the TV stations in the west broadcast it.

Unlike most here I have my own mind and do not regurgitate blind faith policy or believe the lies from either side.

I am reminded of the WWII story at the marshalling yards, when the young soldier asks of his superior,

” Sir why are we stuffing these people into these trucks “

‘Because they deserve it Son, we are the only master race’

“Sir their screams are deafening me, and getting on my nerves”

‘Just bang the sides of the wagon with your rifle butt- son, that will show them who is the master race’

” Sir they are spitting at me now “

‘Just poke your bayonet between the slats son, that will teach them to recognise the master race ‘

” Sir they are spitting blood at me now Sir “

‘ Well just fire into the truck then son, that will teach them to respect master race’

” Sir now they are spattering their shyte as well as blood out of the truck “

‘See son now you know why they deserve to be put in the trucks’

Like I said the current difference is only the lack of jackboots.

No I am not antisemetic, not even anti septic,

but I only write to the people I can reach who can do something about the situation, you, all of you can use your democratic powers to insist the resolution is both on the election table and vote out any democratic party that does not have peaceful resolution as an absolute minimum ideal aim, for without at least that, there can be no resolution peacefull or otherwise.

Of course you will at least consider it before voting, unless you subscribe to the notion that you may perfectly legally be bombed into or out of your democratic rights, with impunity.

Thats not what my forefathers fought for.

You do not trust you own words. Not intrested in the details of all parties is a bad start for an independent opinion. I am shure that you did not have overlooked, that the word Germans or Nazis was replaced by master race for obvious reasons, did you?!

There is no way in hell that interdiction strikes from the air will damage Hizbollah sufficiently. I’m not even sure if they make much of a difference other than creating a lot of unwanted feelings which provide a catalyst for motivating new recruits to join the effort against Israel.

I believe that a temporary answer lies in ground operations, both special and conventional, with limited air support. Still, you need to seek additional solutions if you intend to contain the problem in the long term. An international deployment (with teeth and backbone) could be something.

It makes no difference. The people did not love each other before and will not do so afterwards.
At least none can claim, that he/she has no peronal experiences about triggert violance any more.
Bring-in foreign troops will change nothing really, with the examples of US/French/Syrian troops in mind, when there is no sufficiant support from the Lebanese themselves. I do not see that, because most human-beings claim others for responsible at first and have no real intrest to be blamed about own mistakes. The situation in Lebanon is a good example, that politics influences the live of every citizen and none can claim honestly it is not his personal business too.
Israels intel is too bad to do some successfull ground operations really!

Foxnews reports

Israeli authorities confirmed to FOXNews that an Israeli Cobra helicopter went down in northern Israel, not far from the border town of Kiryat Shmona. Officials said the pilot and co-pilot were killed. The cause of the crash was not known.

Luckily for me I have never seen heard or read any piece of Hezbollah propaganda, I cant understand Arabic nor do the TV stations in the west broadcast it.

Unlike most here I have my own mind and do not regurgitate blind faith policy or believe the lies from either side.

I am reminded of the WWII story at the marshalling yards, when the young soldier asks of his superior,

” Sir why are we stuffing these people into these trucks “

‘Because they deserve it Son, we are the only master race’

“Sir their screams are deafening me, and getting on my nerves”

‘Just bang the sides of the wagon with your rifle butt- son, that will show them who is the master race’

” Sir they are spitting at me now “

‘Just poke your bayonet between the slats son, that will teach them to recognise the master race ‘

” Sir they are spitting blood at me now Sir “

‘ Well just fire into the truck then son, that will teach them to respect master race’

” Sir now they are spattering their shyte as well as blood out of the truck “

‘See son now you know why they deserve to be put in the trucks’

Like I said the current difference is only the lack of jackboots.

No I am not antisemetic, not even anti septic,

but I only write to the people I can reach who can do something about the situation, you, all of you can use your democratic powers to insist the resolution is both on the election table and vote out any democratic party that does not have peaceful resolution as an absolute minimum ideal aim, for without at least that, there can be no resolution peacefull or otherwise.

Of course you will at least consider it before voting, unless you subscribe to the notion that you may perfectly legally be bombed into or out of your democratic rights, with impunity.

Thats not what my forefathers fought for.

So you really think this bombing will decrease the numbers of Hizzbollah and Hamas??

There is no way in hell that interdiction strikes from the air will damage Hizbollah sufficiently. I’m not even sure if they make much of a difference other than creating a lot of unwanted feelings which provide a catalyst for motivating new recruits to join the effort against Israel.

I believe that a temporary answer lies in ground operations, both special and conventional, with limited air support. Still, you need to seek additional solutions if you intend to contain the problem in the long term. An international deployment (with teeth and backbone) could be something.

Wish i was out there I want to get a flight on a Chinook 😀 the planes Israel are using are they two seater’s F16?

James

Looks like Hassan Nasrallah is still alive just gave interview with Al-jaz., he said hizbellah leadership is intact and damage to its capability minimal. He also reiterated the claim which IDF acknowledged that couple merkavas have been destroyed along the border in the fighting. There was report that Lebanese media is showing video footage of this anybody have screen capture of it, what ATGM were used?

I do think Israel is doing the right thing, and they’ve got to get rid of as many Hezbollah and Hamas type people as possible.

So you really think this bombing will decrease the numbers of Hizzbollah and Hamas??

Do you know why these groups have some much support in the local sosietyes? It’s becouse they are (when not busy to lauch rocket attacks) doing the task that Israel should do, providing education, healthcare systems and other basic elements of working sosiety. I’ve said this before and I say it again, what really maters, is wheter you get food on your table or medical services when you are sick. The occupation itself is far minnor issue if the normal living conditions are acseptable. Normal people (those who don’t hang around military forums 😉 ) cares more about the well being of their childrens than wheter this land belongs to you or me…

But when entire people is pushed agaisnt the wall and left with absolutely nothnig, desperation starts rising and desperate man does desperate things…

Building houses and giving food and work instead destroying them an´d building walls and missiles does wonders…

Okay let me clarify my earlier series of remarks. I came off as very hostile, but here’s what I mean:

First of all I don’t condone the killing of any civilian anywhere, including all Arabs. I would never want to do it myself, and I don’t think it’s right for anyone else to do so.

I’m intrigued by Arabic (at least Islamic Arabs) culture because in my limited experience, I’ve yet to see a group with more hate….or at least they seem to be the most vocal at the moment.

When I say kill them all I’m referring to anyone who is a terrorist of any sort (Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) or supports terrorist groups in any form or fashion (those in the gov’t in Syria, Iran, etc.).

With all of that being said I would still feel incredibly uncomfortable in the ME simply becuase I’m an American. As xenophobic as it may sound, I would feel that way and I feel that most people in the region would not consider me a welcome visitor. Whatever their reasons for that, right or wrong, I feel that would likely be the case.

With all of this being said, I still feel that Israel is not the victim in this like so many of you are making them out to be. They’ve pulled out of various places from over the years, and the only thing they ever seem to get in return is more violence.

The capture of the soldiers is most definitely not the only reason the Israelis are going after Hezbollah, but it was just the excuse they needed, and personally I don’t fault them for it. I feel they have a right to defend themselves, and I completely support everything they are doing. They are not specifically targeting civilians, but this is war and casualties will happen. You simply cannot avoid it, and to assume so is being naive.

Hezbollah by contrast is specifically hitting civilian targets and they are even using Lebanese civilians essentially as human shields. So obviously when the Israelis retaliate, what do you think the outcome will be?

So Israel should stop their offensive right? If that happens, then the terrorists have won. They have proven they can simply get their way by putting a gun to someone’s head (speaking figuratively of course). What else can the Israelis do but continue to hit terrorist targets and infrastructure while trying to minimize civilian casaualties. They know civilians casualties are a very bad thing, and they are doing their best to minimize them, but it’s hard.

In a nutshell, the Israelis must retaliate because sitting idly by and/or trying to “negotiate” with terrorists is letting them win and allowing them to restock their weapons aresenals.

When the security of your country is in jeapardy it is your government’s responsbility to defend your nation, then they must do so by all means necessary. It’s not pretty but it’s reality.

I’m curious Flex as to what you think the Isrealis should do to get suicide bombers to stop terrorizing their citizens. Apparently in your mind all of this is their fault, so what do you propose they do to fix it? Personally I don’t see anyway short of bullets and bombs into terrorist heads……

Again let me be clear that I would never condone the killing of Arab civilians. I want to learn more about what makes the Islamic Arabs seem to be so full of hate…….not just towards the U.S. but seemingly to anyone who is different than they are (this even includes why Shiites and Sunnis hate each other so much…..)

I do think Israel is doing the right thing, and they’ve got to get rid of as many Hezbollah and Hamas type people as possible.

You are right about the ability of the Lebanese government in some way. But did they try hard enough before?! At least not in time as the present situation shows.
The two-thousand UNIFIL soldiers are limited to observations duties only. They are not allowed to prevent Hezbollah fighters from entering the border-zone or firing something right now. By UN pressure some regular Lebanese forces were send by Lebanon too, but those did not interverne, when informed by UNIFIL before.
Just that moment the UN is trying to widen its task and bolster UNIFIL forces.
(Annans speech) But it is still in need of Lebanese consent and help to do so. The UN can support the Lebanon, but the Lebanon has to show the will to act accordingly and start the disarming with UN-support. Not doing so the problem is just postphoned to the next incident!
There are European observers in Gaza, but those are ignored by both sides.
The Kassams did not stop.
None can help the parties envolved, when those do not show the will to act to the rules set by the supporters! May it be the UN or the EU!

Well I ment that UN can do alot if it has the will…apparently at the moment it doesen’t as the biggest influencer, USA keeps stalling the decision making.
But even if UN or EU (ok perhaps not EU :p ) should step in, it cannot be done while Israel is bombing the area, in fact it should have been done before all this but past is past and there is no ways to change it.

When it comes to Hezbollah, the answer is no. For Hamas it is, it depends. But we keep in mind, that there are many other forms of resistance before violance starts. When someone allows violance, he has to bear the related hardships from that. In my eyes no good advice for Hamas, because the most hardship have the non-combatants to bear. I do not believe in regains in paradise!

Thanks…So again we are (or least I am, don’t really remember whom I was agaisnt the last time 😉 ) getting to the only solution for this whole issue…stop violance…someone has to make the first step and apparently Israels are just too arrogant and stubborn to do it…Becouse they are the ones doing the ultimate reason for all this violence, the occupation. To end it, the one doing it needs to step down (and this means real stepping down, not some charity pieces) in this case Israel. Ofcourse you can go and say “but that wont stop the terrorism..” but it’s the only way. Ofcourse there will be some sort of terrorism for awhile (mostly frustration for the fact that there is nothiong more to fight on as your whole life was build around that fight), but it will dry out as there is no reason for majority of palestinians to support the extremist any longer.
Saying it wont work is useless becouse in reality, is the current policy working??

“Hezbollah infrastructure”
You mean that they OWN the roads?Or they build the ports?
And can someone tell me what is the point of destroying oil and water depos,civil buildings and highway roads?

To become cynic is of little help. There is a single highway between Trablous and Saida, which is not interrupted. Maybe you mean road 1 between Beyrouth and Damascous, which is a highway on the Syrian side, which was interrupted on the Lebanese side. The price for a taxi-ride to Damscous had risen from 50 $ to 500 $. But I see, too much details do not fit to quick opinions, when the same people do blame the ordinary journalists for that.
The reports of the UN will show it afterwards, when most peoples may have past to the next topic and not looking back.

I didn’t claim that one side suffrers more than other, just asked wheter you were claimimg so…

And what comes for Lebanese ability to trow out hizbollah, I think they would have done it if they were able. These things dosen’t happen in one night, you got to give time and most importantly help…and this however it may seem isen’t helping the situation. Did Israel ever seeked a diplomatic solution? Why isen’t there UN troops disarming the Hizbollah? Why isen’t there UN troops in palestinian areas?

But I fail to get your awnser to my question, so once again…If Israel is justificated to attack on lebanon and kill innocent civilains on the basis that they didn’t do nothing, Is Hizbollah and Hamas justificated to attack towards Israeli civilians on the basis that they support the regime that opress them??

You are right about the ability of the Lebanese government in some way. But did they try hard enough before?! At least not in time as the present situation shows.
The two-thousand UNIFIL soldiers are limited to observations duties only. They are not allowed to prevent Hezbollah fighters from entering the border-zone or firing something right now. By UN pressure some regular Lebanese forces were send by Lebanon too, but those did not interverne, when informed by UNIFIL before.
Just that moment the UN is trying to widen its task and bolster UNIFIL forces.
(Annans speech) But it is still in need of Lebanese consent and help to do so. The UN can support the Lebanon, but the Lebanon has to show the will to act accordingly and start the disarming with UN-support. Not doing so the problem is just postphoned to the next incident!
There are European observers in Gaza, but those are ignored by both sides.
The Kassams did not stop.
None can help the parties envolved, when those do not show the will to act to the rules set by the supporters! May it be the UN or the EU!
To your last question. When it comes to Hezbollah, the answer is no. For Hamas it is, it depends. But we keep in mind, that there are many other forms of resistance before violance starts. When someone allows violance, he has to bear the related hardships from that. In my eyes no good advice for Hamas, because the most hardship have the non-combatants to bear. I do not believe in regains in paradise!

“Hezbollah infrastructure”
You mean that they OWN the roads?Or they build the ports?
And can someone tell me what is the point of destroying oil and water depos,civil buildings and highway roads?

Whats happening at the present is simply nothing more than ethnic cleansing.

Hitler would have been proud of the Israeli goverment actions, not only in occupation, segregation, descruction of the fabric that makes a thriving community. And like Hitler they under estimate or fail to comprehend the strengthaning of will and desperate measures that will be taken in self defence.

If the rest of the world jump up in abhorance of the choice of example given, they should first look at themselves as individuals and then at their own governments inaction to help prevent an even greater holocaust, after all it was the holocaust that caused Israel to become enforced upon Palestine.

Without a solution to this fundamental imposed wrong and an end to the Palestinians situation the jihad will continue from generation through generation.

What a shame so many have to die today in total contempt of these millions that died all in vain due to intollerance.

Have we learnt nothing.

Shame on you Bush Blair Putin Chirac, the only difference is lack of jackboots.

“Ethnic cleansing!” You have got to step back from the Hezbollah propaganda an look at what is really happening.

If ethnic cleansing was the Israeli intent, the Lebanese casualty rate would be 3,000 or 30,000 or maybe 300,000 but after 9 days of fighting it is actually 300. Hezbollah intentionally embedded its infrastructure in civilian areas. To counter this, Israelis drop leaflets warning the civilians before destroying the Hezbollah infrastructure with precisely targeted LGBs. The warning leaflets and LGBs are to reduce casualties of innocent Lebanese civilians. It would be easier to carpet bomb with dumb bombs destroying everything, but that is not what Israel is doing.

Wrong. You can not claim that one side suffers more than the other. Both sides suffer and that is out of question. To break the cycle of violence you have to name those responsible for that. For the Lebanese people it is the own government at first as it is for the Israeli people theirs.
It was for all Lebanese people to read and to hear month before in the open. Hezbollah gave away that it has 12000 rockets brought into Lebanon and it is able to reach every town in Israel with that nearly! The same group questions the excistense of Israel in total. The same group conducted several border incidences after Israel left Lebanon in 2000. That was all observed by the UN. The UN was aware that the Syrian troops in Lebanon were an obstacle to disarm that dangerous group. Syrian troops had to leave Lebanon therefore, but nothing happened about disarming. The time-bomb was ticking for all to see. The Lebanese government and army showed themselves unwilling or unable to remove that constant threat for the security of Lebanon. When you are not willing to face a looming danger you have to bear the consequences from that. Israel has no intrests in Lebanon except a quit border. I think most Lebanese people think similar about a quit border, but they did and do not show their will in the public to exercise political pressure on Hezbollah and their own government to fullfill that. None can claim he was not aware about the looming danger from Hezbollah for Lebanon before!
I can not see, that Israel is happy to start some sort of disarming Hezbollah at all, which is still the duty of the Lebanese government! It will cost the Israeli people a dear, with questionable results, when not finished by the Lebanese government really!

I didn’t claim that one side suffrers more than other, just asked wheter you were claimimg so…

And what comes for Lebanese ability to trow out hizbollah, I think they would have done it if they were able. These things dosen’t happen in one night, you got to give time and most importantly help…and this however it may seem isen’t helping the situation. Did Israel ever seeked a diplomatic solution? Why isen’t there UN troops disarming the Hizbollah? Why isen’t there UN troops in palestinian areas?

But I fail to get your awnser to my question, so once again…If Israel is justificated to attack on lebanon and kill innocent civilains on the basis that they didn’t do nothing, Is Hizbollah and Hamas justificated to attack towards Israeli civilians on the basis that they support the regime that opress them??