Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

Gollevainen’s special quiz of the week….Quess the name of the country??

A country with democratic and human rights to just one certain religious groups, Formed on stealed land form others, have driven few million people in to exile, occupates territority of other sovreing lands, opress the people in the occupated territory by not denying them the very basis of human rights and realistic means of normal living

fits right in to the neighborhood??

There are Israeli arab MK in the Israeli parliament (Knesset) who were
voted in democratic procedure you can view members in here
some of the Arab MKs are any Israel and regulery meet with Israels worst
enemies like Hams, Hizzbulah and Syrian officials. Imagine a US senator
helping Al Qaeda.
Since Israel took over in 67 (from Egypt and Jordan) life expectancy rose
from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years
for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa.

Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000
live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40,
in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation,
childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were
eradicated.

By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had
electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85
percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967;
83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4
percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

At the time of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, not a single
university existed in these territories. By the early 1990’s, there were seven
such institutions, boasting some 16,500 students. Illiteracy rates dropped to
14 percent of adults over age 15, compared with 69 percent in Morocco, 61
percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia, and 44 percent in Syria.

Truly denying them of human rights and realistic means of normal living!

Listen!

How many palestinians died in last 2 weeks and how many Zionists?

Compare the numbers you will get the result.

Sure killing from inside those F16 s are like playing video game .

I don’t know why USA is still supporting the Israel!!!

Most of those terroristic attacks against USA are due to US support of Israel.

in the last 72 Hr about 40 terrorist were killed. just because you want
to call a dead AK-47 and explosive belt carrieng hamas member a
“pregnent women “; doesn’t make him one. The more dead terrorist there
are in Gaza and the West Bank the less dead Israeli civilians there are.
It seems the shortage of dead Jews is irretible to you and I hope it stays
this way.

I fully agree with you that the Bali, Madrid, Istanbul, Beslan, London,
New York, Moscow, Riad, Sinai, Tunis and the other bombings are due
the the US support of Israel, for the life of me, I just don’t see any other reason.

You are not making the distinction between the 1 million Israeli Arabs, who are the citizens of Israel, and the Palestinians, who are not.

As for the number of refugess, the 4 million figure is the number of the current Palestinian refugees, not the number of Palestinian refugees who fled in 1948. Their number is growing because of the Arab League’s decision that no Palestinian will be granted citizenship in any of the Arab countries, so this number includes the original refugees’ descendants.

A few million ?

4 082 300 to be exact…

UNRWA inflates the figures, for their own agenda.

Agenda of what??? Same agenda as those who claim that only few hundred thousand jews where slaughtered by nazies???

Oh yes. But you forget that the oppressed people, turned down peaceful overtures at Camp David, Taba, and more requests for negotiations between late 2000 – very early 2001.

Oh yeas, peacefull offer…We took your house, but you can sleep on the yard…Would you have take it???

Peace and more negotiations, were turned down for more war ! – Now the oppressed people, have embraced a fundamentalist terrorist theological oligarchy !

A good counter for zionist aparheid government :diablo:

What about the Druse, Christians, and Moslems in Israel ? I suppose they are kept from living a free life inside of Israel ?

Are you joking !!!

Your goverment kill almost everyday 1+ palestinians. how you can say that they living a free life inside israel?

Your goverment kill them in there homes!!

Your goverment dont even count palestinians as humen.

Israel did it’s part it what is called “the road map”, which is a series of
steps taken by both parties that aventuly will lead to a Palestinian state.
The Gaza withdrwal last summer was a key (and very costly) major step.
I don’t deny that Israeli foreign corps are doing a horoble job at explaining
the reality and the facts, the foreign media anti israeli biase doesn’t help either.

So now to the facts. since the Israeli withdrawl 600 rockets and 400 morters
were fired into Israeli towns bordering Gaza. Israel’s response was to shell
the empty field in Gaza to scare the terroirst. it didn’t work.
Then Israel started to use it’s air force to hunt the rocket launchers.
in this operations many terrorist were killed, however the exploding rockets
on the trucks also killed and injured innocent civilians that were around.
on other occasions and israeli helicopter fired a missile went array hiting a house
50 meter from the intded vehicle killing several innocent civilians.
So yes, palestinian civilians do die but it is not done purpesly and is the reality of the
war that the Palestinians have started.
If you know a country that would have acted differntly when it’s towns are attacked
then let me know.

Listen!

How many palestinians died in last 2 weeks and how many Zionists?

Compare the numbers you will get the result.

Sure killing from inside those F16 s are like playing video game .

I don’t know why USA is still supporting the Israel!!!

Most of those terroristic attacks against USA are due to US support of Israel.

A country with democratic and human rights to just one certain religious groups

What about the Druse, Christians, and Moslems in Israel ? I suppose they are kept from living a free life inside of Israel ?

have driven few million people in to exile,

A few million ? Their were not a few million in 1948. UNRWA inflates the figures, for their own agenda.

opress the people in the occupated territory by not denying them the very basis of human rights and realistic means of normal living

Oh yes. But you forget that the oppressed people, turned down peaceful overtures at Camp David, Taba, and more requests for negotiations between late 2000 – very early 2001.

Peace and more negotiations, were turned down for more war ! – Now the oppressed people, have embraced a fundamentalist terrorist theological oligarchy !

– They just turned the clock back 500 years :confused: .

If I stole a car then give it to my friend, it’s still stolen…

I can understand that, but do you actually think that Israel and the PA will be able to contain the terrorist threat in the near future? As I’ve come to understand things, the frustration which resides in the minds of many Palestinians will most likely continue to provide the circle of violence with momentum. Fed by Israeli military incursions, civilian casualties, the presence of Israeli settlers etc., how do you expect the level of frustration to decline enough for terrorism to cease?

By first finding a pragmatic Palestinian leader with real power, and letting him prove that he is capable of controling the civilian population and taking all of the weapons from the Palestinian terror organizations. This is where Abu Mazzan failed. Until the arrival of such leadership, what Israel has to do is to do is get all of the settlers out of the remoted settlements, except the major settlements blocks, and keep the army inside. That would make this occupation more conventional. The settlements are a relic from a time when some Israeli leaders told people to go and live there, thinking that one day these areas will be a part of the state. It’s time to make this occupation from a colonial attempt to a security measure.

I realize that many Israelis suffer due to terrorism, and I support Israel’s right to, with reasonable efforts, defend its citizens from e.g. the terrorist threat, but how on Earth do you expect this threat to disappear as long as Israel continues to maintain its pressure on the Palestinian population? Surely most Israelis are well aware of the fact that the occupation effectively feeds the beforementioned mechanism which is at work here, just as most Palestinians should know that terrorism won’t solve anything?

My opinion is that there is no other choice but keeping them occupied until they could be able to control themselves. Having dozens of “military” organizations is not the way to go. Arafat came closest of being a responsible leader who had the support of his people, but made the mistake of thinking that terrorism is a tool for negotiations. Once the majority of Palestinians realize that their way for prosperity, security and statehood is through negotiation, only then will peace begin to have a chance.
The pressure on the Palestinian population is a result of the Palestinians giving the terrorists their approval for their actions. The first step for the easing of the pressure on the civil pop. is for the Palestinians to denounce terrorism.

I gather that the issue of defence is among the reasons why Israel sustains its presence on the Western Bank. In simple terms, this measure itself is among the factors which trigger the very threat which it is designed to counter. Am I getting somewhere with this?

This is the tragety of the conflict.

In a previous discussion, I recall that you mentioned something about an increasing distance between most Israelis and the settlers. How is this relationship developing? Are the levels of public acceptance and support for the settlers declining in any way?

It’s an interesting time in Israel. Olmert plans a second disengagement, while the first clearly failed. I don’t think he’ll have enough support to pull this through. I think that while most Israelis realize today that the majority of settlements have to be demolished, they won’t support his plan. Once again, we’ll have to wait for a real Palestinian partner for a real agreement. Anything alse will result in more terror and death, and will eventually fail. If you think that the Israeli attack in Gaza as a result of the Qassams in southern Israel is harsh, wait until you’ll see the Israeli response of rockets at Tel Aviv.

to sum it up, for now, the best way to go is to convert the Israeli occupation of the West Bank strictly to a security measure, while Israel should do the best to support Palestinian leaders who will be willing to take responsiblity and stop terrorism. It might be Abu Mazzan, as he still has a lot of support in the Palestinian crowd, but it also might be someone alse.

Gollevainen’s special quiz of the week….Quess the name of the country??

A country with democratic and human rights to just one certain religious groups, Formed on stealed land form others, have driven few million people in to exile, occupates territority of other sovreing lands, opress the people in the occupated territory by not denying them the very basis of human rights and realistic means of normal living

fits right in to the neighborhood??

1) Israel has a legal equality for all of its citizens.
2) Israel’s land was gained in one of the following ways: Bought, given by the UN, and won by war. None was stolen. All of the aforementioned ways were used legally in other parts of the world.
3) The more serious estimates as for the number of Palestinian refugees who fled from the land range from 400,000 to 800,000. In which case, not “few million people”.
4) The Israeli law does not extend to the West Bank and Gaza as those were never annexed. Therefore, it doesn’t sees itself obliged to give the Palestinians the same rights as Israelis, even though the world sees Israel responsible for the Palestinians’ condition. But the truth is that that all violations of human rights in the occupied territories are a direct results of the conflict, and therefore are the shared responsiblity of Israel and the Palestinians themselves.

With these type of neighbors, it makes it impossible, to put any type of Western style normal peace agreement together. Israel’s neighbors do not have any kind of democracy and freedom.

Gollevainen’s special quiz of the week….Quess the name of the country??

A country with democratic and human rights to just one certain religious groups, Formed on stealed land form others, have driven few million people in to exile, occupates territority of other sovreing lands, opress the people in the occupated territory by not denying them the very basis of human rights and realistic means of normal living

fits right in to the neighborhood??

If you know a country that would have acted differntly when it’s towns are attacked then let me know.

Their is no other country, that would allow this to continue. Israel has actually shown remarkable restraint. Israel uses much more expensive precision guided weapons (at the same time their are much more effective less expensive conventional weapons, that have never been used) when it comes to engageing terrorists, that take up positions, in and around Palestinian civilian bystanders.

At the same time, the Palestinians, have no problem sending Qassam missiles, at Israeli civilian homes ! The cities of Sderot and Ashkelon, have been targeted by Qassam missiles. A school in Ashkelon, was hit this week by a Qassam missile.

____________________

What is very interesting, is that a lot of European posters, try to push for Israel to negotiate, and put together some type of Western style peace agreement. Guess what ? Fortunately or unfortunately, Israel is not located between Belgium and The Netherlands. Israel is located in the middle of a very bad neighborhood.

The Arab M.E. is rife with nepotism, military dictatorships, fundamentalist theological governments, monarchies, terrorism, and corruption etc… What the Arab M.E. does not have, is organized legal opposition, freedom of the press, womens rights, free elections, democracy, and religious tolerance.

Please take a minute to see who Israel’s immediate neighbors are in the Middle East.

Here is a brief, on who is located immediately around Israel. –

Lebanon.

Controlled by Syria. Lebanon has multiple terrorist organizations, that freely control lawless areas in the country. Syria controls what kind of terrorist organizations are organized inside of Lebanon. The Syrian secret police, use murder and corruption to control the entire country. No freedom of the press and network.

Syria

A 2nd generation nepotistic minority fascist military dictatorship, that sponsors, harbors, and funds international terrorism. No freedom of the press or network. Governmental control of the internet. No elections or legal opposition of anykind.

Jordan

A minority monarchy

Palestinian areas

Until the recent election of the fundamentalist theological terrorist gov’t of Hamas, you had an exclusive corrupt Fatah military dictatorship, that was a worldwide participant of terrorism. No freedom of the press or network. No free elections by Fatah until recently. Opposition members are often brutally attacked by the people in power. Government controlled media, often encourages that children be used for martyr suicide attacks on Israeli civilians.

Egypt

A 25 year corrupt military dictatorship, that does not allow any kind of organized opposition. No freedom of the press or network. Their are no free elections. The son is being groomed, to assume control of the military dictatorship, after the father either dies, or is incapacitated.

______

With these type of neighbors, it makes it impossible, to put any type of Western style normal peace agreement together. Israel’s neighbors do not have any kind of democracy and freedom.

At one point it wasn’t an “increasing distance” but pure hate for the settlers to point that would make the Nzais proud.

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkSlateGray]Second Godwin of the thread!

[/FONT][/COLOR]

I can understand that, but do you actually think that Israel and the PA will be able to contain the terrorist threat in the near future? As I’ve come to understand things, the frustration which resides in the minds of many Palestinians will most likely continue to provide the circle of violence with momentum. Fed by Israeli military incursions, civilian casualties, the presence of Israeli settlers etc., how do you expect the level of frustration to decline enough for terrorism to cease?

I realize that many Israelis suffer due to terrorism, and I support Israel’s right to, with reasonable efforts, defend its citizens from e.g. the terrorist threat, but how on Earth do you expect this threat to disappear as long as Israel continues to maintain its pressure on the Palestinian population? Surely most Israelis are well aware of the fact that the occupation effectively feeds the beforementioned mechanism which is at work here, just as most Palestinians should know that terrorism won’t solve anything?

I gather that the issue of defence is among the reasons why Israel sustains its presence on the Western Bank. In simple terms, this measure itself is among the factors which trigger the very threat which it is designed to counter. Am I getting somewhere with this?

In a previous discussion, I recall that you mentioned something about an increasing distance between most Israelis and the settlers. How is this relationship developing? Are the levels of public acceptance and support for the settlers declining in any way?

Please elaborate on what Israeli occupation Gaza or what pressure Israel
maintain on the Palestinians in Gaza or on their border with Egypt?

If occupation feed terrorist then why was there terrorism against Israelis
before the occupation or before the state of Israel was created.
Also why did the number of Israeli terror casialties 7 times higher
after the Oslo peace deal?

At one point it wasn’t an “increasing distance” but pure hate for the settlers
to point that would make the Nzais proud. Before the Gaza disengagment
(escape) It was on the TV and every new outlet that because of the
settleres is no peace and thay they get rich for doing nothing (the only
Jews that worked in agriculture). People were happy to see the army beat
the hell out of the in the pullout. That warn against the palestinians firing
rockets at Israeli towns and smugling weapons from Egypt were shown
as fear mogaeres and standing in the way of peace. Today the mode is
changing and enger starts too go towards those the lied and knowingly
created this disaster. It will tske more time for the public to fully realize the
magnitude of the mistake as the Israeli media and courts are exclusivly
controlled by the left wing which was the “brains” behined the disaster.

because if we’ll give this land to anything less than a Palestinian country with zero terrorists in it, I won’t feel safe.

I can understand that, but do you actually think that Israel and the PA will be able to contain the terrorist threat in the near future? As I’ve come to understand things, the frustration which resides in the minds of many Palestinians will most likely continue to provide the circle of violence with momentum. Fed by Israeli military incursions, civilian casualties, the presence of Israeli settlers etc., how do you expect the level of frustration to decline enough for terrorism to cease?

I realize that many Israelis suffer due to terrorism, and I support Israel’s right to, with reasonable efforts, defend its citizens from e.g. the terrorist threat, but how on Earth do you expect this threat to disappear as long as Israel continues to maintain its pressure on the Palestinian population? Surely most Israelis are well aware of the fact that the occupation effectively feeds the beforementioned mechanism which is at work here, just as most Palestinians should know that terrorism won’t solve anything?

I gather that the issue of defence is among the reasons why Israel sustains its presence on the Western Bank. In simple terms, this measure itself is among the factors which trigger the very threat which it is designed to counter. Am I getting somewhere with this?

In a previous discussion, I recall that you mentioned something about an increasing distance between most Israelis and the settlers. How is this relationship developing? Are the levels of public acceptance and support for the settlers declining in any way?

Israel did it’s part it what is called “the road map”, which is a series of
steps taken by both parties that aventuly will lead to a Palestinian state.
The Gaza withdrwal last summer was a key (and very costly) major step.
I don’t deny that Israeli foreign corps are doing a horoble job at explaining
the reality and the facts, the foreign media anti israeli biase doesn’t help either.

So now to the facts. since the Israeli withdrawl 600 rockets and 400 morters
were fired into Israeli towns bordering Gaza. Israel’s response was to shell
the empty field in Gaza to scare the terroirst. it didn’t work.
Then Israel started to use it’s air force to hunt the rocket launchers.
in this operations many terrorist were killed, however the exploding rockets
on the trucks also killed and injured innocent civilians that were around.
on other occasions and israeli helicopter fired a missile went array hiting a house
50 meter from the intded vehicle killing several innocent civilians.
So yes, palestinian civilians do die but it is not done purpesly and is the reality of the
war that the Palestinians have started.
If you know a country that would have acted differntly when it’s towns are attacked
then let me know.

Land for peace policy you say? Is your definition of peace includes 600
rocket fired at school, kindergarten and residential areas? Because this
is what Israel got for giving the Palestinians 100% og Gaza. But then
again you already knew it.

Okey you say Gaza was Israel land and it give it to plaestinians just to help peace?

Rockets? Everyday I hear on news about israeli bombs killing pregnant women, Israeli shells Killing the whole family on the beach and so on…

Some 50 years ago most of arab countries were unable to make a “pin” but time has changed, now most of them have well educated and rich people .

I think in next 20 years most of them gonna built there own nuclear reactors.

So how long Israel gonna exist with such harsh policy??

Do you think those arab countries gonna sit and watch the crimes israeli army doing?

If I was prime minister of Israel i used peace for land policy.

Land for peace policy you say? Is your definition of peace includes 600
rocket fired at school, kindergarten and residential areas? Because this
is what Israel got for giving the Palestinians 100% og Gaza. But then
again you already knew it.

Some 50 years ago most of arab countries were unable to make a “pin” but time has changed, now most of them have well educated and rich people .

I think in next 20 years most of them gonna built there own nuclear reactors.

So how long Israel gonna exist with such harsh policy??

Do you think those arab countries gonna sit and watch the crimes israeli army doing?

If I was prime minister of Israel i used peace for land policy.

So people dont want to talk about numbers 😉 , POINT MADE :D, lets move on…

As if Israel has stopped assasinations, what you expect? Expect them to sit and quit while you pick and kill them off knowing you will kill civilians…you want them to sit back while IDF soldiers empty whole magazines into young girls and get away with it in courts…you want them to sit back while Palestinian children are ‘shot in the head’. ? and then you dont exactly remain a civilian after serving in the army. Its like a criminal shooting 3 people and living freely 5 years later.

The whole “who started” point is like the egg and the chicken question, unless you are asking it from a certain point in time to another. Let’s take the disengagement – we left Gaza to the last inch according to international law. There was an unofficial ceasefire in place, made by Hamas. Every once in a while rockets were still flying to Israel, but it chose not to retaliate. Then the Qassams began to land by dozens, and only then did Israel begin to fire artillery to Gaza, aimed at the Palestinians firing them.
During that time the assasinations and arrests were limited to people who were involved in the actual planning of terror attacks – do you really expect Israel to do nothing when it knows about people who plan to execute terror attacks whose goal is to kill Israeli civilians?
In none of the above actions did Israel had an objective to kill unarmed civilans, but those kind of things happen. If someone ever told you that war is not dirty, he’s the greatest liar you’ve met. Civilians are being killed in almost every single conflict, and in larger numbers than here. Israel always regrets the killing of innocent people, but again, this is one of the worst side effects of war.

Yep, Palestinians launched V-uber back in 20s and 30s to kill Jews.

Independant monitors think Palestinian family was killed on beach my Israeli shelling. And what cease fire are you talking about? Israel never declared any cease fire, it was the Hamas, which was forced to break it after the targeted murder of that family…We know Israeli shells are v. accurate and they know exactly where its going to land and on what its going to land. What matters is Olmert needs some upping of himself since Sharon is having a time of his life, people wanted war mongers, now they are all happy.

Again, egg and chicken. Only that as I said, the artilley fire is a result of the Qassam. And by the way, you can’t be as accurate as you think in artillery. You can fire at a certain point, but you can’t actually see it.

Its not only about Gaza here, More of West Bank is being stolen, same goes for East Jerusalem.

Wanna know my personal opinion? Israel has to get rid of most of east Jerusalem, and fast, and Gaza is a hell hole I don’t want to ever visit. The West Bank is a different thing. Want to know why? because when it comes to this part of land, I have to be selfish. Why? because if we’ll give this land to anything less than a Palestinian country with zero terrorists in it, I won’t feel safe. This land has to be given to Palestinian control only under a real agreement, under which Israel could make sure its civilian and industrial center is safe. Until then, we’ll have to stay in most of it.

Killing Civilians is not the only form of terrorism. Ask Israeli F-16s for other forms of terrorism. Olmert said no one in Gaza should be able to sleep, THAT is terrorism, that is collective punishment. People who went through Holocaust…are now using collective punishment..against others, its an insult to the victims of Holocaust, atleast respect them if you dont consider Palestinians humans, atleast respect your ancestors.

There is a very small number of things done by Israel and the IDF in Gaza which don’t have a very realistic goal behind it which has something to do with fighting terrorism. I’m ashamed of these few things. But all in all, the activity being done in Gaza has my support.

Lets no even talk about which territory belongs to whomee.

Alright, let’s not. There’s nothing to talk about anyway, the place where the army position is located is a kibbutz which never was Palestinian territory (and don’t tell me that “all of the land was Palestinian once”, we both know that’s not true – before the establishment of Israel, Jews bought the land where they settled from the local Arab Sheikhs) and will never be, nor was ever claimed to be Palestinian under any negotiation.

Palestinians caught Shalit before he and his tank party could carry out terror attacks in Palestine and execute them. So Palestine’s capturing and killing of Israeli terrorists is justified. The capturing/killing of innocent people is terrorism – the capturing/killing of armed terrorists who plan attacks on Palestine is not.

Really? do you know what that tank was doing there?
The first time Israel entered Gaza with tanks after the disengagement was after Shalit’s kidnapping. The tank he was in was simply watching the border. And besides, even if you think that Israel carries out terrorism, you still can’t call soldiers of a regular army “terrorists”. If you would have called every army that ever accidentaly killed civilans “terrorist”, there would have been no major army today that wouldn’t be “terrorist” under your definition.

next point..
How many Palestinian prisoners are in Israeli jails…without Trial..Erez and I agree that capturing of innocent people is terrorism, I want to see how many Palestinian civilians are in Israeli jail without trial and how many Israeli civilians are in Palestinian jails, we’ll assume the civilised notion of not guilty until proven….lets see… :diablo:

The only thing that bothers me is the amount of double standards involved here…the ‘free world’ sees one soldier captured, and does not sees hundreds of women and children in Israeli jails without trials in independant and neutral courts….is that the civilised western world? Uncle caveman was better.

People who have been captured as terrorists are not innocent even if they were indeed not trialed, not for me. Also, there are almost 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli jails, and as far as I know, most have been trialed.
As for Palestinian women and children in jail, except for certain cases, they deserve to be where they are. Keep in mind that the Palestinians do use women and children for terrorism.
By the way, the US army captures terrorist children in Iraq as well. What’s wrong with capturing people who try to kill you, even if they are so young?
I think, though, that such children deserve a second chance, but only after they’ll understand that terrorism is not the way to go.

.

Independant monitors think Palestinian family was killed on beach my Israeli shelling. And what cease fire are you talking about? Israel never declared any cease fire, it was the Hamas, which was forced to break it after the targeted murder of that family…I heard Israeli shells are v. accurate and they know exactly where its going to land and on what its going to land. What matters is Olmert needs some upping of himself since Sharon is having a time of his life, people wanted war mongers, now they are all happy.

Sad to admitt that we are the ones that orginally providing the basis of Israel artillery…:(