Militaria.

Bomber Command were waging a lawful war…

I’ve always had trouble with that one; a ‘lawful war’. Exactly what laws does a country need to obey when it starts a war; I’m sure every nation (or leader) thinks it is perfectly justified when it launches an unprovoked war on another nation. Britain itself has some recent experience in that field.

Humans, being what we are, can be made to believe that almost any behaviour is justified or legal; on the one hand that will lead to the ‘Rape of Nanking’ on the other the ‘Firebombing of Tokyo’.

CD

Except for those that were executed by the allies.

As I made clear, I was referring to those who were given prison sentences. No one served more than twelve years and all were released without stain on their character.

If we were to somehow ‘measure’ the emotive subject of atrocity wouldn’t a relatively fair measure be the number of non-combatants killed by military forces? I wonder how the Bomber Command offensive over Europe would be measured by other nations in comparison to the ‘Rape of Nanking’ that you mentioned in another post.

Interesting point. Bomber Command were waging a lawful war, and not one of their own choosing. Although waging an aggressive war, the Allied Nations were not the aggressors in the strictest terms. Germany invaded Poland on September 1st 1939, the war with Japan came as a result of their aggression of the 7th and 8th of December 1941. How would the Bomber Command offensive over Europe be measured against the German bombing of Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London or Coventry? Or the Japanese bombing of Hong Kong, Singapore, Manila or Darwin? Of its scale there is no doubt, of its efficacy there will always be questions. But do the people who question the bombing of Dresden or the use of the atomic weapons on Japan ever question the bombing of, as Harris put it, ‘half a hundered other places’?

Personally I do not believe that the men of Bomber Command could have (or rather, would have) taken a bayonet to unarmed women and children; the Japanese soldier of 1937 (just to be clear) certainly did. The culpability of the two governments of the time is somewhat less defined.

In terms of Bomber Command they were carrying out the orders of the British Government in order to end the war. However, Japanese soldiers did carry out the Rape of Nanking despite there being no further resistance. The resulting horror took place under the command of the Uncle of Emperor Hirohito. In both Germany and Japan, some war criminals were tracked down and tried following the cessation of hostilities. How do you define the culpability of the Governments involved? In the case of Japan, clear orders had been given to eliminate all traces of the atrocities against both PoWs and civilian internees and there are many examples of where these orders were carried out.

Certainly the attitude of the individual British or Japanese (or German) soldier towards the ‘enemy’ was different during the war but it is difficult to understand, without experiencing it, how somebody from modern-day Japan or Germany must feel (and deal) with the past; certainly their (as our) views must be clouded by the views of their relatives who lived through the war.

That again is an interesting point. In Germany there is an acknowledgement of the past but it seems that that acknowledgement is not so clear, at least by successive post war Governments, in Japan. Evidence of this is in the school text book controversies over the years. It’s also there in the issue of the comfort women and sexual slavery. One Japanese Minister even tried to outlaw the mention of sexual slavery and even agreed with an email suggesting that those forced into sexual slavery should have been proud to serve Japan in that capacity.

I am beginning to see the complexities of which Oppama speaks and I am endeavouring to learn more. I understand that the Government of Japan (today) and the Japanese people are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors, but by the same token, surely they should acknowledge their history and confront it in much the same way that historians are forcing us to confront many of the less savoury aspects of our history.

Tony (Rocketeer)

PM me if you are interested in the musket plate, it’s of no real interest to me so I’m sure we could come to some arrangement.

Regards,

kev35

I have a Boer War period, Lee-Metford Mk1, Type 2 Bayonet up for disposal shortly. Sorry no pics but it’ll be auctioned in the next few weeks on a well known website.

Laviticus. Thats exactly what I thought it looked like PH, and I think you are quite right in your assumption.Parker Hale has been going for yrs as you say.
I wasn’t joking when I said I should have gone to S/Savers. Had new specs 3 yrs ago, so I guess I shall have to part with some of the paper stuff,and get some new ones.:)
Cheers,
Jim,

Lincoln .7

JIM
Its PH, may be for Parker Hale Ltd
A firearms accessory manufacturer in the 18 and 19s they ended up making air rifles.

Shouldn’t that be Taffyban?

should ban you with jokes like that lol

German war criminals have been hunted down and tried right into the early part of this Century, this was not the case with Japanese war criminals. In fact those Japanese war criminals sentenced to ten years and above, including life sentences, were all released by 1957 at the latest.

Except for those that were executed by the allies.

Their release was made by the Japanese Government of the time with the statement made that they were to be released without a stain on their character. Hitler made it easy by committing suicide, but had he lived to be captured do you really think he would have been set free and absolved of all responsibility like Emperor Hirohito?

Isn’t it a criminal offence in Germany to deny the holocaust? In Japan, there is not only denial of the excesses of the IJA but attempts to whitewash them from history. I believe it was in 1997 that a Japanese Minister suggested that all mentions of ‘sexual slavery’ should be banned and declared that ‘comfort women’ should be proud to have served Japan in that capacity.

It seems there is movement in Japan to collectively acknowledge and accept responsibility for the excesses of the time but they are still being rebuffed by successive Japanese Governments.

If we were to somehow ‘measure’ the emotive subject of atrocity wouldn’t a relatively fair measure be the number of non-combatants killed by military forces? I wonder how the Bomber Command offensive over Europe would be measured by other nations in comparison to the ‘Rape of Nanking’ that you mentioned in another post.

Personally I do not believe that the men of Bomber Command could have (or rather, would have) taken a bayonet to unarmed women and children; the Japanese soldier of 1937 (just to be clear) certainly did. The culpability of the two governments of the time is somewhat less defined.

This is a difficult subject (and believe me I’m not trying to stir-up an argument) but the RAF still fly a Lancaster as a memorial to the Bomber Command crews in the tactfully named Battle-of-Britain Memorial Flight (even though the Lancaster hadn’t flown by 1940).

Certainly the attitude of the individual British or Japanese (or German) soldier towards the ‘enemy’ was different during the war but it is difficult to understand, without experiencing it, how somebody from modern-day Japan or Germany must feel (and deal) with the past; certainly their (as our) views must be clouded by the views of their relatives who lived through the war.

Kev. Can you tell me the letters under the Crown on the Enfield musket plate please.I cannot quite make them out. (Perhaps I should have gone to specsavers!!)
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Odd how this has gotten onto a league table of Japanese vs other country’s atrocities. I believe we cannot hold today’s populations to account for their forebears actions. However, I do not like it when a country (any country) chooses to re-write history.
When I was a kid, there were many people who would not buy Japanese products. I had no right to argue with them – several had had relatives butchered in the most terrible way – one, an unarmed PoW was tied to a tree, cut open and left to die….these accounts were common place. One of my relatives was on the Burma Railway, the problem was that as prisoners, they were considered dishonourable by their captors and sub human. I suppose all countries (including ours) have chapters that are not as glorious as we would like – to avoid repeating history it is best not to hide these chapters.

Back to the thread, I do like the PH musket plate Kev. I think it is pucker and real. 1858 was in percussion time…..I have two flintlock weapons converted to percussion…your plate was built as/for a percussion..not a conversion

😀

ha ha i live right on the North Wales border, they have got their own Taliban in those mountains you know, ready to fix bayonets lol

Shouldn’t that be Taffyban?

😀

Bloody hell cmon now Rob now your even berating the Welsh and bringing them in to the argument. What have the Taffs ever done to you then Rob. :diablo:

ha ha i live right on the North Wales border, they have got their own Taliban in those mountains you know, ready to fix bayonets lol

Oppama.

And if you believe this is all about Kev’s bayonet collection, then I refer you to the first sentence in post #13 of this thread. Comments like that are nothing to do with the thread topic, and are inflammatory at best.

My comment was a response to the previous post, merely pointing out that treaties and conventions are not worth the paper they are written if one or more of signatories chooses not to comply with the same. (This would also apply to the agreement given through the Swiss by the Japanese Government that although not ratified the Japanese would uphold the tenets of the Geneva Convention.) The comment was not intended to be inflammatory and it seems only you have found it so.

I’m sure you won’t agree with me, but – like Kev – you probably feel that you can make pretty much any comment about Japan and the Japanese people without being challenged. I’m here to tell you that if you think you can pigeonhole modern day Japan and the Japanese people into one unanimous viewpoint on the Geneva Convention then you are wrong.

We’re comparing apples and pears here aren’t we? I’m talking of the Japanese Government during the war whereas you are talking of successive post war Governments. I like a challenge, I like to be challenged. I don’t know about you but it’s how I learn, and I’m learning from you.

but modern day Japan is largely what the post-war occupation of 1945-52 made it, and it is with that occupying regime that Kev will find the answers to many of the more specific questions that he has been asking. If he thinks that Emperor Showa was let off the hook, then he might have been better off asking Gen. MacArthur about it rather than a modern day Japanese coalition government.

I understand about MacArthur and that is an area I fully admit I need to learn more about. I presume you are making the assertion that MacArthur’s haste to ensure a strong post war Japan which was allied to America is the reason behind the release of war criminals long before their release was due.

On the other hand I have seen several memorials and shrines to Allied personnel on Japanese soil, erected and maintained by local Japanese people ( does that surprise you? ).

Somehow that doesn’t surprise me

If Kev wants to voice an opinion as to whether or not a steam locomotive should be on display in the grounds of the Yasukuni Shrine, then I feel duty bound to point out that his bayonet display might not always mean the same thing to others as it means to him – just like the locomotive

By the same token if some people choose to erect a Memorial to the members of the Kempeitai in the Yasukuni Shrine, then I feel duty bound to point out this Memorial might not always mean the same thing to others as it means to them – just like a pair of 1907 pattern bayonets.

Regards,

kev35

Five minutes? I’ve been a forum member for a fair bit longer than you….

I am being told to “…shut the F up…” at the same time as being accused of stirring up racial hatred.

On the other hand I have seen several memorials and shrines to Allied personnel on Japanese soil, erected and maintained by local Japanese people ( does that surprise you? ).

Lest We Forget…

I see you registered sometime in 2008 while Jim registered sometime in 2010 but I fear Jim refers to the number of posts you have posted rather than your actually registered time. Not a very active member of the board compared to most of the other posters in this topic are you. I think this is what is being refered to.

I told you to shut the F up because I feel that we have heard enough of your droning on about the Japanese people and Japan. How much do you really know about the subject. A fair bit more than me I would expect but isnt it the way for modern citizens of a country to forget the ways of their fore fathers. I wonder if they remember Attila the Hun like the remember Japan?

I think we would all just like this thread to get back on track. One thing we do have as explained before is freedom of speech in this country and we can think, feel and speak about those feelings and experiances if we so wish which is what Kev was doing. It is his opinion and his feelings, That you cannot take away from him. But I feel that Kev does not tar every person in Japan with the same brush but you would have us believe he does. Time to back down a little and let things be.

I also fear that a little like me at times you do not read the entire post while commenting for there I think you will find I didnt accuse you of stirring racial hatred…… I took time and thought into choosing which word I would use to describe what I felt you were doing. What I said was that you were the one stirring racial tension. Which is what happens when you dont just let go of a subject but keep bashing on about the subject over and over no matter what the subject matter of a thread actually is. I was very careful in my description and I think you should be too with your replies.

As for Allied shrines in Japan being cared for by the locals. This does not surprise me one little bit in fact it shows that these people have more of an idea about honour and respect than their fore fathers ever had. I am not saying every Japanese soldier was a bad person or evil but they certain were good soldiers in the fact that they dedicated their life to their chief and country and did whatever it took to hold their twisted ideas hounour in high regard.

As for Lest we forget……… I wish I could forget your postings. The just start to get annoying in an otherwise perfectly normal thread.

Oh and if you love Japan so much why dont you just ship out there and set up your own little home there. I doubt we would miss you.

Tell me one thing why did it take the Japenese people so long to realise that they were on the wrong side. This could all have been sorted long before it was. They didnt stand a chance really. Why did it take a nuclear bomb to make them realise. And not just one either.

Something for you to think about.

It is not all just black and white or even multi shades of grey. For too many people who came against the Japanese it was blood red.

Opamma. Yes you have been a member longer than I, so you should have given more thought prior to putting your opinions down as you did, clearly upsetting, some members.
I have stated my comments, and am not adding or subtracting a single word of my comments.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

in the past i even started to learn to speak Japanese but this turned out to be just as hard as learning Welsh.

Bloody hell cmon now Rob now your even berating the Welsh and bringing them in to the argument. What have the Taffs ever done to you then Rob. :diablo:

there are memorials to German fallen within the UK but not Nazi ones, but none to japanese for a number of obvious reasons. the main one being location. the second i will try to get into words

in all the historical accounts that ive read in books or seen on tv the German folk were somewhat divided on what Hitler and the Nazi`s wanted. it was only because Hitler controlled military, Police and SS and most of the bordering countries etc and had a massive input into pushing his country into a war that most Civvies and polititians of Germany did not want.

in all the Japanese accounts they always seem to speak of the Emperor and doing their duty to serve him and Japan. sending their sons to a war because it was the right thing to do as it was what the Emperor dictated. i can not recall any mention of not doing his bidding, as that was not the way. the only time any rumpus was made was BEFORE and WHEN America was brought into the war by an attack that as the famous saying went “HAS GONE DOWN IN IMFAMY”.

I personaly have nothing against the modern Japanese people and even admire them, especialy with the way they dealt with the recent natural disaster. in the past i even started to learn to speak Japanese but this turned out to be just as hard as learning Welsh. i actualy know more German than i do either of these because part of my family is Austrian/German.

does that surprise you oppama??

You have only been a member for 5 mins, and your threads are some of the worst I have seen. Kev has just asked a simple explanation as to a very small part of a collection, and your trying to turn it into WW3.

Five minutes? I’ve been a forum member for a fair bit longer than you….

As for the quality of my posts, I’m sorry to disappoint you. I do the best I can, just as it appears you and most of the other people in this thread do. Perhaps I’m just not very good at getting my point across? When it comes down to it, I’m trying to avoid the likelihood of a WW3. We won’t avoid it if we can’t see that the world was quite a different place back in the first half of the last century, but that certain regimes and beliefs are – once again – keeping their citizens in the dark and feeding them all sorts of propaganda ( North Korea, anybody? ). There’s no excuse for mankind to repeat the mistakes that it has made in the so recent past. If there are people who believe that the Japanese were / are genetically predisposed to cruelty ( as has been implied on this thread ), then we are probably all doomed to repeat those same mistakes.

And if you believe this is all about Kev’s bayonet collection, then I refer you to the first sentence in post #13 of this thread. Comments like that are nothing to do with the thread topic, and are inflammatory at best. I’m sure you won’t agree with me, but – like Kev – you probably feel that you can make pretty much any comment about Japan and the Japanese people without being challenged. I’m here to tell you that if you think you can pigeonhole modern day Japan and the Japanese people into one unanimous viewpoint on the Geneva Convention then you are wrong. Japan is today one of our closest allies, and from experience I can tell you that the great majority of its population are anti-war. I’m sure they will fight alongside ‘us’ if they have to ( and if we let them… ) but modern day Japan is largely what the post-war occupation of 1945-52 made it, and it is with that occupying regime that Kev will find the answers to many of the more specific questions that he has been asking. If he thinks that Emperor Showa was let off the hook, then he might have been better off asking Gen. MacArthur about it rather than a modern day Japanese coalition government.

May I respectfully ask that you give your fellow members a modicum of respect, on the Forum.

I feel I am being respectful. Certainly more respectful than some of the other posters on this thread are being to me. I am being told to “…shut the F up…” at the same time as being accused of stirring up racial hatred, when I’m actually pointing out the folly of such old-fashioned thinking ( half my family is Japanese! ). You couldn’t make it up…

Or rather you could. And that’s how the bad regimes always got started in the first place. Pretty soon you got rifle drill in the primary school playground to go with it.

well theres one thing that wont be in this country and thats a shrine to the fallen from the land of the rising sun.

I’m sure you’re right – although I’m not sure why you’d think there might be any question of that possibility. On the other hand I have seen several memorials and shrines to Allied personnel on Japanese soil, erected and maintained by local Japanese people ( does that surprise you? ). Sadly there appear to be some people in the UK who want to dictate what should – and should not – be in Japanese shrines. I’d say that was a matter for the Japanese nation to try to come to a concensus on, wouldn’t you?

as for a bayonet display! Oppama your bang out of order to use a comparison like that..

Not at all. I think it is very much to the point. If Kev wants to voice an opinion as to whether or not a steam locomotive should be on display in the grounds of the Yasukuni Shrine, then I feel duty bound to point out that his bayonet display might not always mean the same thing to others as it means to him – just like the locomotive.

Lest We Forget…

well theres one thing that wont be in this country and thats a shrine to the fallen from the land of the rising sun.

as for a bayonet display! Oppama your bang out of order to use a comparison like that..

its like watching tv. if you dont like what your watching then dont watch it and change the channel. if you or anyone else for that matter doesn`t like knives or bayonets then you dont go to see a display of them.

the world is full of evil doings and goings on but they cant be solved here on what is at its base line an aviation website. if you want to put on your mask and cape and save the world then do it somewhere else or go pester parliment or something.

Oppama. Whats your problem?.

You have only been a member for 5 mins, and your threads are some of the worst I have seen. Kev has just asked a simple explanation as to a very small part of a collection, and your trying to turn it into WW3.

May I respectfully ask that you give your fellow members a modicum of respect, on the Forum.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Oppama,

Oh really.

Why dont you just shut the F up.

You are the one here who is trying to stir up a racial tension here please just stop.

No one is interested why dont you just let things be.

However on a brighter not all of the wrecked aircraft pieces I have in my collection are British I do have German relics too. I would be happy to add some Japanese and Italian relics to my collection too. 🙂

Kev I once had the chance to buy a set of cutlery that was given to a Sgt during WWI when he moved onto another regiment or home I dont remember which as it was so long ago anyhow it was going for soemthing like £30. Not a lot of money and I had more than that on me. It included the box and inside the box was his Military ID tags. Oh how I wish I had bought it and put some history to it. It would have been displayed in pride of place even though I never knew the guy or had any relation to him.

Enjoy you display and display it with the pride of our fallen heroes.