Militaria.

Oppama.

We will always be diametrically opposed on this. You refuse to acknowledge that ANY of the things I say are correct. If there is denial it is within you. Just because the people of Japan thought differently in those years does not mean they were correct, or does it? Are you really trying to tell me that the treatment of PoW’s and the Rape of Nanking did not happen? Or worse that such behaviour was acceptable? It’s not so much a matter of seeing things in black and white, more of seeing them in red.

Answer me the simple question of why Japanese war criminals were released without a stain on their character? Long before their sentences were over.

As to displaying a bayonet in my own house, it is there for the simplest of reasons. It is there to remind me of the service and sacrifice of a war almost 100 years ago, a war in which members of my family fought, a war not of their choosing. Unlike the locomotive at Yasukuni it is not there to remind me of the success or otherwise of a railway built with the lives of people who, in the main, were there for no other reason than they had been let down by their own Government.

I apologise for my use of the word berated, it was a bad choice as it implies I have been hurt by your postings which I have not.

I learn as much as I can about that period of history from all sides, I am limited in that by the dearth of material available from/in Japan and also by the obfuscation of the truth by successive Japanese Governments.

Regards,

kev35

Oppama will no doubt berate me again, but it isn’t about revenge, it’s not even really about atonement, but it is about an honest acknoledgement of the past.

You honestly think you have been ‘berated’?

I’m telling you again that you know nothing about Japan today, you know nothing about “the Japanese” and you appear to know nothing about what you call “…an honest acknowledgement of the past”. Your comment regarding Emperor Showa ( Hirohito ) proves that beyond all doubt. You have absolutely no concept of how complicated these issues really are for individual Japanese people. You seem to talk about it all in terms that are black and white, and yet in reality there are a thousand shades of grey between them.

In our previous conversation you took great offence at the display of a steam locomotive at the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo ( if I remember correctly, you implied that it was being ‘worshipped’? ), and yet here you are talking about bayonets which you intend to “display”. Surely anybody can see that there are two sides and often many more to a story, and your bayonet “display” may evoke quite different emotions – and memories – in different people depending on viewpoint?

How do you think your bayonet “display” would come across to my friend’s father, who had to witness the gang rape of his young sister whilst having such a weapon held to his throat? Do you think the perpetrators of that crime were brought to justice? How could they have been?

I’m not saying that you should not display you ‘Militaria’, as I think such items can be a poignant reminder of what they were made for and can be tools for education, but I am shocked and saddened to see you – at the same time – so vehemently referring to Japan and “the Japanese” when you clearly know nothing about their individual experiences, and seem to lump them all into such conveniently simple terms and judge them.

You ask me to “educate” you. The answer is inside you, my friend. Believe me.

….I’m sure the Germans waged a war that was every bit as cruel and barbarous as the Japanese and yet the attitude towards these two nations (in Britain at least) is quite different.

German war criminals have been hunted down and tried right into the early part of this Century, this was not the case with Japanese war criminals. In fact those Japanese war criminals sentenced to ten years and above, including life sentences, were all released by 1957 at the latest. Their release was made by the Japanese Government of the time with the statement made that they were to be released without a stain on their character. Hitler made it easy by committing suicide, but had he lived to be captured do you really think he woud have been set free and absolved of all responsibility like Emperor Hirohito?

Isn’t it a criminal offence in Germany to deny the holocaust? In Japan, there is not only denial of the excesses of the IJA but attempts to whitewash them from history. I believe it was in 1997 that a Japanese Minister suggested that all mentions of ‘sexual slavery’ should be banned and declared that ‘comfort women’ should be proud to have served Japan in that capacity.

It seems there is movement in Japan to collectively acknowledge and accept responsibility for the excesses of the time but they are still being rebuffed by successive Japanese Governments.

Oppama will no doubt berate me again, but it isn’t about revenge, it’s not even really about atonement, but it is about an honest acknoledgement of the past.

As to the ‘bullet thingy’ I don’t have it with me at the moment but I can’t remember there being any markings.

Regards,

kev35

It has the profile of the familiar British 303 rimmed cartridge except that it is longer than a standard cartridge (nearly the length of a cartridge with a bullet) but it isn’t tapered or ‘pointed’ to simulate a live round.

I’ve seen German training rounds (ironically from Stalingrad) that were a standard cartridge case but with a wooden bullet; I’m not sure if they were designed to fire the wooden bullet or were just some sort of ‘handling round’.

My guess is that your ‘bullet thingy’ would originally have had a wooden point and would have been used by troops to train in rapid-fire with the bolt-action Lee-Enfield rifles of the time (the extended cartridge case being intended to prevent wear during the rapid loading action).

Is it dated on the base?

Now that’s the kinde of technical description I like, bullet thingy. Yes it is open and hollow. It has been suggested that it is some kind of dummy round used when testing the firing action?

Regards,

kev35

…why not lay into the Germans…

Why not indeed…..I’m sure the Germans waged a war that was every bit as cruel and barbarous as the Japanese and yet the attitude towards these two nations (in Britain at least) is quite different.

Anyway back to the militaria.

…what is the bullet shaped item at the top?

Is the ‘bullet thingy’ hollow and open at the ‘front’ end?

Kev

Thanks for that I just wondered thats all.

I have a set of WWII medals that are pretty special to me although I am just the keeper of the keys so to speak until the grandchildren of the man come looking for their grandfathers medals. Long story and a close family friend gave them to my dad. My dad before me always kept the medals safe incase the family ever wanted them back.

It kinda brings it home to you when you have an item that relates to an event that a relative has been through. I cant even begin to imagine what it must have been like for your relatives having to fix bayonets.

Nice items though. Always been interested in blades myself but most are out of my price range well at least the ones I would like to collect.

I think it’s Kev that’s not doing himself any favours.

Anyway, back to the “Militaria”…..

In the past Kev and I have crossed swords as you say.

I just hope for Kev’s and my own sake they were not Japanese swords.

As you will find many times on the forum everyone is entitled to their own opinion and as such nobody here or elsewhere wants you trying to stir up racial issues where there is one. Next we will have the whole argument that the Dambusters dog should never have been called Nigger.

On the whole it is another era that has gone and is assigned to history but it doesnt mean that people do not remember. We have a great many veterans who do remember how the Japanese treated them while detain at their pleasure. All of this is well documented so I wont bore you. Some of us have since formed our own opinions on how we feel about said Japanese and with that said we dont have to like them but I hope we are all a lot more tolerant than they were during WWII.

Modern day Japanese, Germans and Italians cannot be held responsible for what their forefathers have done but its not just black and white like you paint it.

In this country we still have freedom of speech so long as we are respectful with it and I will always maintain that Kev is always respecful and thoughtful when he posts.

ive done loads with ww2 veterens who fought in all theatres and yes its quite true that the way some counties fight and live are against the ethics of others. the living veterens remember the facts and still feel the anger because they were there fighting a foe that was fanatical to a cause that was fed to them from an early age by a strong teaching/ propaganda movement to the point of brainwashing. why not lay into the Germans for following the Nazi party and the Italians while we are at it.

there is no shame in admiring the designs of engineering they came up with and the way the work was organized but only when it was not used for slavery, torture or mass extermination.

a lot of our knowledge of oxygen starvation and what would happen to the human body if in an airless vacuum came from nazi/German experiments on those going to extermination or thought of as sub`human… it helped build the airliners we fly in today and fly man to the moon!!.

the same causes have not been carried on by the new generations thankfully.

the past can never be forgotten but it has to be lived with

Oppama.

We’ve done this to death and neither of us are going to change our views. I have no facility with which to visit Japan and talk to any Japanese veterans. I have read Japanese accounts where and when I can find them. Yes, there should be balance but the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the fact that the IJA and IJN, and many of the individuals who served in those forces, committed unspeakable acts of cruelty and barbarism. Read the judgment of the IMTFE.

I have met and spoken to a number of people who suffered at the hands of their Japanese captors. Of all the veterans I have met, not one ever had a good word to say about them as captors. As a fighting man, veterans have told me that the Japanese soldier was capable of fighting fanatically but always with an edge of cruelty to their actions. We can argue endlessly about the Japanese concept of honour as opposed to the Western one.

If I am wrong in my ‘appreciation’ of the Japanese Government and the people of Japan in their war to liberate the peoples of the East and to join their ‘co-prosperity’ sphere then that is a cross I will have to bear.

Vicarious outrage? Nothing vicarious about it. How can there be when you read the accounts of what the POW’s were forced to endure? Or when you have a veteran break down in front of you? Seventy years on the pain is no less for them. Hatred? Clearly. A definite and abiding hatred for the acts carried out in the name of the Emperor.

Maybe I am uneducated and my opinions are not valid, if that is the case then educate me.

Regards,

kev35

Gives us a break mate. I think every man and his dog can see what Kev or anyone eles on this thread means/meant.

Your not doing yourself any favours mate.

I think it’s Kev that’s not doing himself any favours. Most of the time I see him making well judged, wise and very helpful / interesting posts. It’s clear that he has a passion – not to mention compassion – for a certain aspect to all this, and I often feel quite moved by some of his work ( I’m imagining that a lot more goes on behind the scenes than we see here ), and his posts.

But when the focus falls on Japan and the Japanese, all of that seems to go out of the window. I’ve crossed swords with him here on the forum in the past, and it seems clear to me ( sadly ) that he’s got a particular idea about Japan and “the Japanese” that he must surely have inherited, and it is coloured with a kind of vicarious outrage. Hatred seems to be bubbling not far from the surface.

And yet he seems to know almost nothing of Japan or of “the Japanese” and appears unwilling to be in any way pragmatic about judging Japan and the Japanese. It’s as though the clock stopped there in 1945, but continues as normal ‘here’. It all seems a bit too conveniently black and white.

I think he should get a ticket to Japan and go talk to some of “the Japanese” concerned, before it’s too late. I did, and it has had a very profound effect on the way I feel, and what I believe. When you hear the stories of individuals concerned, in context, from both sides, it makes you think….

Anyway, back to the “Militaria”…..

Oppama.

We’ve had this dance before I believe.

Scott.

Not family related at all, just something picked up over the years. I suppose the only family connection to the bayonet as such is that all three I would consider Grandfathers would have carried a similar item during the Great War and two of them would have obeyed the order ‘fix bayonets’ on at least one occasion.

Regards,

kev35

Kev is the blade a family related item or just something picked up over the years that held an interest. I mean the old rusty one.

Gives us a break mate. I think every man and his dog can see what Kev or anyone eles on this thread means/meant.

Your not doing yourself any favours mate.

The Geneva Convention meant/means nothing, just ask the Japanese!

I think you should make it clear whether you’re talking about pre-1945, about 2012, or indeed some other period of time. Not to mention what “the Japanese” means in that context (?).

No idea Kev.

My input comes only from my days in the firearms industry where the issue of expanding ammunition for law enforcement was a major pre-occupation.

Because of some muddle-headed thinking our police are restricted from the use of expanding ammunition. This is a major-league nonsense since such rounds not only do the job better, but also minimise the very real danger to the civvies in the proximity of any incident of the round that passes through a perps body intact and relatively unhindered.

The lengthy debates on the subject invariably involved the use of the words ‘Dum Dum’, ‘banned’ and ‘Geneva Convention’

However when I researched it back then, it became obvious that the Geneva Convention had nothing to say on the subject, and the restrictions (in warfare only, no relevance to law enforcement) came from the Hague Convention regulations.

I suspect this is the case too on different shapes of stabbing weapon, but haven’t at this moment the time available to verify this.

However, I am dragging your thread off topic – apologies.

Moggy

In that Japan was only bound by the Hague? Japan was a signatory to the Geneva Convention but did not ratify it. However, I don’t have the reference to hand, but Japan did, in 1942, state that they would adhere roughly to the tenets of the Geneva Convention. This, of course, turned out to be an absolute lie.

Regards,

kev35

Can I just point out that most references to the Geneva Convention are erroneous and usually derive from some vague recollection of regulations emanating from The Hague Convention.

Moggy

Nice find Kev 🙂

The Geneva Convention meant/means nothing, just ask the Japanese! But my understanding of the efficacy of the triangular bayonet is not so much that it makes a wound easier to stitch, rather, if the wound is to the chest it leaves a ‘sucking’ wound which is far more difficult to deal with.

Regards,

kev35

Not as nasty as the triangular bayonet.

Regards,

kev35

Kev. Am I right in thinking that the triangular bayonet was outlawed by the Geneva Convention, as the wound it created was harder to, if not impossible to stitch the wound it created. A straight cut wound similar to the wound that the bayonet you have is/was much easier to stitch up by the medics.
Jim.
Lincoln .7