Nigel rises again- Is this the second coming?

Re 168

I saw the same TV pictures and I didn’t see any English. I thought that I was watching news excerpts from the U.S.

Bruce, perhaps you need a trip to Specsavers ! Or, perhaps I do.

CD

Correct. But, that’s not the point. It is what we buy. We are a large market for their exports right on their doorstep.

Nothing in my #154 suggests that the problems outlined are exclusively the province of immigrants. The native British are more than capable of exercising their own brand of mayhem.

Like all on this forum or, anywhere else for that matter, I depend on the media for my information. The examples I gave have all been quoted in one form or another on either TV or the Press. You all know that to be a fact because my sources are the same as your sources – that which I’ve seen and read is identical to what you have seen and read.

It is a common device to widen the net of debate when you want to dilute a particular argument. That is Bruce’s ploy at #165.

All the naysayers, Doubting Thomas’ and assorted lefties would do themselves great credit if they acknowledged that this country has many serious problems not the least being our burgeoning national debt alluded to earlier by me and one other member. Contrary to some critics, I’ve never suggested the UKIP have all or, indeed any, of the answers apart from divorce from the EU.

There is one powerful factor at play in the matters under discussion. It is the factor of ‘perception’. The examples of problems that I list in #154 are commonly known, they’ve been done to death by discussion groups on TV audience participation programs. Even if these problems are not completely accurate they will have gained currency and status and be large on the radar of public perception. Its public percepton as much as anything else that will help UKIPs share of the vote.

As for trade. Our importance to the EU as a trading partner is important enough to ensure that there will be no sanctions, embargoes or tariffs levied against Britain, they need us…

What for? What do we produce in the United Kingdom that the EU couldn’t buy from another EU country?

It’s not, repeat not, immigration but removal that is UKIP’s central policy.

So why bother to list all those problems caused by immigrants if UKIP isn’t going to change it?

Saw Nigel was wearing patriotic socks tonight on Television!

Oh, and I am amused by the scenes today showing the English fighting over cheap televisions on so called ‘Black Friday’.

Perhaps John you should look to remove the American influence as well…

It’s not, repeat not, immigration but removal that is UKIP’s central policy.

SF

Of course one would expect to make payment for assets regained. That is obvious.

As for trade. Our importance to the EU as a trading partner is important enough to ensure that there will be no sanctions, embargoes or tariffs levied against Britain, they need us. We do not have to be part of any trading bloc. We just need bi-lateral trading agreements whenever and wherever.

Charlie,

I’m not so sure. Enough people believe that 25 percent of the people in this country are Muslim, when the real figure is just 5, that they have genuine concerns. The people that are concerned the most are people in areas such as Great Yarmouth, where I live, and where there is little or no immigrant population apart from itinerant fruit pickers who appear for a few months a year. They believe in the stories that John tells, certain that these problems are only brought by outsiders, when the truth is that there are plenty of native Englishmen who are just as capable of such crimes.

For all of the examples that John gives, there are plenty of other examples of misdeeds carried out by the English. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush. But people do, and always have.

Above all, John wants us out of Europe. He wants us back in charge of our own destiny; if we ever really were.. But what happens if and when that does happen? The history of the UKIP party suggests that they are a group of people united by one common purpose, but over and above that the story is a little more complex. When the fifth largest donor is in it to ban women from wearing trousers, you do have to wonder.

Creaking Dopr has made a very interesting and well reasoned post. Yes, we can opt out of Europe, but the price of dealing with it, and with all of the other countries, is that we allow free movement of people. You can’t get away from it. Perhaps in some ways we are victims of our own successes. I watched a local UKIP leader earlier suggesting that local people couldn’t get jobs because of migrants, yet we have more people in employment than ever. The facts are out there. Some people need to understand what they mean, and put their prejudices to rest.

Bruce

I really don’t care what they get, I’m just concerned with my own country.

Me too!

You made a statement about EU conferred benefits to Britain. I asked what they were.

So you concede that there are, or may be, benefits to Britain?

I don’t know what they are.

Nor do I…..specifically.

You then go on about the rest of the world and what they get.

No, because I do not know, specifically, what the benefits to the United Kingdom are, I used the argument that there must be some benefit or why do all these other countries, that pay into the EU, and put up with all the EU rules and restrictions, do so?

Now, our electorate may have lost all trust in our main political parties to do what is right for Britain, but have they also lost trust in all the political parties of Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Ireland to do what is best for their own countries?

The British electorate must also, somehow, have convinced themselves that the Labour, Liberal-Democrat, Conservative and Scottish National parties have all decided to keep Britain in the EU (or at least try to keep Britain in the EU) despite knowing that it is not of overall benefit to Britain and despite knowing that it is not what many, even the majority, of the British electorate want?

Why would all these political parties do that?

I agree but come the election it will as on many past elections cease to be a significant factor.

The obsession with the immigration red herring will not help towards our most deepest and most serious problem. Debt reduction…

I agree, but I still maintain that immigration is the key to the popularity of UKIP.

Well, I’ve heard of missing the point but, you’re a mile wide of the target !

No, I’m not saying that. You made a statement about EU conferred benefits to Britain. I asked what they were. I don’t know what they are. Is that so difficult for you to understand ?

You then go on about the rest of the world and what they get. I really don’t care what they get, I’m just concerned with my own country.

The obsession with the immigration red herring will not help towards our most deepest and most serious problem. Debt reduction. In fact Farage is following in Millipede’s steps by failing to mention it or list it in UKIP’s key subjects – policies for the people. No mention of reducing the deficit to slow the increasing debt mountain. Saving a year’s net contribution to the EU is a fraction of the interest we pay on the debt every year which increases every year.

But maybe he is keeping his powder dry and will announce the plans before May.

It’s the problems highlighted that UKIP aim to solve – Heaven help them!

Well, you said it…..heaven help them indeed!

Most of these problems seem to have immigration as their ’cause’, and I would suggest that is the primary reason for most voters to be considering a vote for UKIP, so I can only refer you back to my earlier post (post #140). Even UKIP will not remove immigrants who are here legally…

…and, without being in the EEA or negotiating a separate trade agreement, cannot trade ‘freely’ with the EU and restrict immigration from the EU in any meaningful way.

Is Britain in charge of Britain ?
As for the utllities you mention. We own them, they are in this country. We take them back, preferably into public ownership.

.

Much of what we regard as British is owned by all comers, thanks to the selling off of every asset we had.

As far as the utilities, we don’t own them not by a hell of a long way, as regards taking them all back into public ownership, yeah bring it on, but I fear there may just be a few objections from many parts of the world and the finance sector, one or two organisations and people may just want repayment for these assets, all for taking them back, but I feel there would be repercussions in terms of trade, investment and jobs.

Your other points, I have already stated that the EU we currently have is not the organisation we voted for and a federal state of Europe does not rank high in what I wish to see, it’s incredibly easy to see the appeal of UKIP with their anti EU stance, but there is no after the exit strategy that I can see, “Creaking Door” summed that up quite neatly, as he says, to trade freely with the EU we would have to become part of the EEA and guess what, “free movement” is still very much part and parcel of the EEA.

You write: “assuming there are some benefits to the UK (Britain) being in the EU…”

I need some help on this one. Can you list those benefits?

Right, so what you’re saying is that there is no benefit whatsoever to the United Kingdom being in the EU…

…what about Germany? What do they get out of the EU? What about France, Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Austria, Sweden and Ireland? What do these countries get out of the EU?

Because all these countries pay large net amounts into the EU budget, have to put-up with all the same rules that the United Kingdom does, and joined the EU (or the EEC) of their own free will…

…so why, why would any of these countries want to be in the EU, or not want to get out of it, if there wasn’t some benefit to them, some benefit that made all the considerable costs, rules and restrictions worth it?

Or are all their politicians stupid, blind, corrupt or part of some great big anti-British conspiracy?

CD

It’s the problems highlighted that UKIP aim to solve – Heaven help them !

Well, that’s how to rouse a rabble, how to win easy votes, how to get elected…..maybe…

…but it doesn’t actually solve any of the problems that you highlight above. That’s the tricky part!