Operating a Warbird

Damien: You might want to skip this entry!!

Kittyhawk: You do realise that once you have spent every last penny you have building your P40, someone, just like you, who has the exact same beliefs and opinions as you, who you quite possibly like, will come up to you, look at you, look at the P40 and then “punch” you because he believes you are rich?

I wish you luck in trying to explain that you are not really rich.

“Die yuppie scum; but first allow me to live like you do” – P. Lonker

Originally posted by TTP
Kittyhawk,

I think its awesome your trying to build a P-40 from scratch, will it be a flyable aircraft, or static?
TTP

airworthy

Originally posted by kittyhawk
not obbsessed just angry at the hide of these people, they take take take.

the opinion comment was directed at jdk, i know where hes comming from and i dont care, i have my own opnion from experiance and i stated it , simple

I think it’s a bit harsh to label most operators as ********s, but there certainly are some of those out there – greedy, sneaky and selfish too.

The problem is that since aviation is such an expensive pastime it is very tempting for some people to wring every last penny out of a deal.

The only consolation is people tend to know who they are pretty early on.

Originally posted by kittyhawk
if i won the lottery i would build a replica a lot faster, i dont like rich people because most rich only become that way by taking from others and look down on everyone.
im the kind of person that would punch a rich guy in the face just for being rich, i know that sounds stupid but thats just me.
and again im not saying all of them.

will you have to lighten the P40? If not ,you’ll never get that chip on your shoulder up in the air!

Kittyhawk,

I think its awesome your trying to build a P-40 from scratch, will it be a flyable aircraft, or static?
TTP

Originally posted by TTP
Kityhawk,

Two questions,

One, what type of plane are you building?

Two, I too admire these warbirds, and I’m also an Air Force Pilot, who frequents Air shows often, so I’ve met many of these owners. For the most part they are avid enthusiasts , a small few who can be spoiled….but look at it this way, instead of taking their millions and blowing coke up their nose, they buy Mustangs and Corsairs and fly to airshows!! I think its great, and hope one day to be just like them…..I do get annoyed at times when one of these guys wrecks these treasures due to limited training/experience.
You seem to have your heart in the right place, but have alot of class envy, I’d guess your a Democrat!! Either way, pretend you win the lottery and won 10 million dollars, wouldn’t you go and buy a warbird too? The rich are just like us, except they either got very lucky or earned it the old fashioned way, I don’t ever look down on them……….
TTP

One) A P-40E right now i need everything i can get, i have a new front cowl, new instrument panel, instruments, canopy crank, possible complete airworthy canopy, have tracked down gear legs & someone to build major assemblies, im getting new wheel castings & other small pieces.

Two) if i won the lottery i would build a replica a lot faster, i dont like rich people because most rich only become that way by taking from others and look down on everyone.
im the kind of person that would punch a rich guy in the face just for being rich, i know that sounds stupid but thats just me.
and again im not saying all of them.

Kityhawk,

Two questions,

One, what type of plane are you building?

Two, I too admire these warbirds, and I’m also an Air Force Pilot, who frequents Air shows often, so I’ve met many of these owners. For the most part they are avid enthusiasts , a small few who can be spoiled….but look at it this way, instead of taking their millions and blowing coke up their nose, they buy Mustangs and Corsairs and fly to airshows!! I think its great, and hope one day to be just like them…..I do get annoyed at times when one of these guys wrecks these treasures due to limited training/experience.
You seem to have your heart in the right place, but have alot of class envy, I’d guess your a Democrat!! Either way, pretend you win the lottery and won 10 million dollars, wouldn’t you go and buy a warbird too? The rich are just like us, except they either got very lucky or earned it the old fashioned way, I don’t ever look down on them……….
TTP

Guess it’s lucky they’re so addictive then…

When I was about 15 years old (1978) my dad and a bunch of his friends from the Independence, MO airport (now sadly torn down)decided to buy a warbird. They talked about a Mustang, but not many in the group would be able to fly it. How about a B-25, then we could all go to airshows together! Eventually one was found in Chino (for about $30,000 I believe) and flew it home to Missouri. A very young Steve Hinton was the co-pilot.

Now, it wasn’t much to look at, but that group of owners and some other “investors” came together and got the bomber cleaned up to take to airshows. They named her “Fairfax Ghost” after the North American Aviation factory here in Kansas City at Fairfax Airport (now also sadly torn down).

Over the next decade that bomber basically ate their lunch. Nobody had any real money (ie very middle class, no millionaires) and the B-25 ate parts like a hungry rhino. Something was Always broken and needed repaired.

Eventually the fun went out of it, and the plane was sold. Today you can see the Fairfax Ghost in Europe as the Red Bull B-25.

Frank Howerton, who headed up the group and wrote a book called “The Fairfax Ghost” sums up his experience by saying “Owning a B-25 was an event I will always remember and never regret, but today I wouldn’t take one if you gave it to me for free.”

So, as you can see from this rather long and drawn out story the purchase price is the least of your worries with a warbird. Of course, the only thing worse than having one engine to work on is having 2 (or more).

Connie Edwards told me (about 15yrs ago) that just because you afford to buy a P-51 didn’t mean you could afford to own one. He said it also works the other way around.

The figures quoted here reflect the fact that it is not so much the acquisition cost for a warbird which is prohibitive, but rather the operating costs. Or, to put it in another way, you’d still need to have an income way above average, if someone would give you one free. I find even the operating costs of a standard, modern single-engine single frightening.

In fact, warbirds appear to me to be dirt cheap compared with that other delectable (and comparable) collector’s item vintage and classic cars. What would be the highest imaginable price for an ultrarare airworthy WWII warbird? 3,000,000 $ ? I could think of a number of classic cars which command much, much higher prices than that. The going rate for a Ferrari 250 GTO is at least twice as much, if I recall correctly.

I am sure you’d find the odd arrogant warbird operator here and there, but 99% of them display their aircraft in public. Which is in stark contrast to what happens to many classic cars, which are bought by (really) rich collectors only to be stashed away for years without being seen again (as with the Bugatti Royale in Japan). That’s arrogance to me. Most of them also trucked to events and driven only a few paces there (e.g. at Pebble Beach).

Lastly, there are lots of relatively cheap warbirds around with plenty of history. $ 200,000 should get you a C-47 in excellent condition, most of which have a more chequered history than many of the fighters flying today.

Sorry, Damien,
Spel.. sp.. writing not my strng point. That’s why I’m an Editor (gah!)

Good point Janie!

Just a thought …
If someone quotes you what their aicraft is insured for, ask them whether they are referring to the premium or the payout!!

Hi Kittyhawk,

Great. Let’s all move on, and see what useful stuff we can come up with. Thanks to those who have shared their thoughts on costings etc.

Great to see some discussion now. I presume you are posting here as you wish to share; what can we help with?

If you want to share your thoughts about those who you are sore at, that’s fine, with or without names as you wish – I’m sure you’ll get some sympathy, and who knows, some help, if people can and it’s appropriate.

As you can see there’s a quite a few namechecks of people of have given a lot – in some cases their lives – so we can appreciate some aircraft. Let’s work with those who are deserving, and ignore the others.

Daminen – bad timing mate – there was a ‘sorry’ there you know.

Cheers
James

Originally posted by srpatterson
The great thing about warbirds is that you don’t have to be a pilot or mechanic to be in the club.

Very well said…

Kittyhawk, If you want to enjoy the warbirds and lose that chip then go and help a cause that is short of money.

Are you saying that Ellie has loads of money just sitting around for her B17, that Russ spent all that time on Black 6 when he could have gone out and paid someone to sort it all out.

We all love warbirds and share them as a club. I for one am just grateful that these people have the genorosity to share these aircraft with us. As you said they could crash them. Maybe ruin a national treasure. So what do you suggest?

They are these peoples personal property, maybe they should lock them in a hangar never to see the light of day or the public see them. You really are narrow minded if you think this is the best way.

That some individuals have enough money to preserve these aircraft and then the good will to show them for our pleasure if a gift that we should be grateful to have. If they ask for some help financially through airshows we should show we are grateful for there commitment by buying tickets and by supporting them.

The saying goes ‘ how do you make a small fortune in aviation’

‘Start with a large one!’

Its true believe me.

Originally posted by DazDaMan
I, for one, don’t own a warbird, and am very unlikely to (unless I win the Lottery rollover), but I don’t agree with that comment.

I joined Carolyn Grace’s Grace Spitfire Supporters Group so that the aircraft can stay airborne, on public display. She doesn’t beg for money – the membership fee goes straight into the upkeep of ML407, and anything that a member donates after that is up to them.

She’s not rich, either. It’s a struggle for her to keep the Spitfire flying as it is, and without the Group, ML407 would be just another museum piece!!

Dude, if you can’t afford it, build a bloody replica! It’s cheaper (hell you can build a FULL-SIZE Spitfire replica for about $250,000 – with an Allison engine in it!) and the end result is just as satisfying. OK, so it doesn’t have the wartime provenance, but does that really matter?

I tell you what I’d rather have….

iam building a replica, anyway this has gotten out of hand, sorry to the few i offended with my views, not sorry to the flamers:cool:

1)warbird owners who are rich and beg for money so they can enjoy thier toys.

I, for one, don’t own a warbird, and am very unlikely to (unless I win the Lottery rollover), but I don’t agree with that comment.

I joined Carolyn Grace’s Grace Spitfire Supporters Group so that the aircraft can stay airborne, on public display. She doesn’t beg for money – the membership fee goes straight into the upkeep of ML407, and anything that a member donates after that is up to them.

She’s not rich, either. It’s a struggle for her to keep the Spitfire flying as it is, and without the Group, ML407 would be just another museum piece!!

Dude, if you can’t afford it, build a bloody replica! It’s cheaper (hell you can build a FULL-SIZE Spitfire replica for about $250,000 – with an Allison engine in it!) and the end result is just as satisfying. OK, so it doesn’t have the wartime provenance, but does that really matter?

I tell you what I’d rather have….

Originally posted by mexicanbob
Mr. Kittyhawk,

I might know why you may have been treated shabby by a warbird owner or two over the years. Could it be your nasty disposition? I’ve seen your type at airshows. Fortunately, these people have been few and far between.

I grew up in West Texas, where warbirds have always been plentiful. Because most of the owners were nice folks and had an interest in the future of aviation, they took me flying in their planes. They let me be involved with their crews at airshows and made me feel like I was important. This all started when I was about eleven. Twenty years later, I’m still friends with them, have met many more just like them and partially because of them I have had a life long love with aviation and history. As well as a twenty year involvement with warbirds.

Up until I moved to South Carolina six months ago, I was living in Washington State. I had the keys to the hangers and near total freedom with a collection of warbirds worth several million dollars. On top of that, I had access to several other warbirds in the Pacific Northwest. I helped with maintenance and got to fly in return. I did alot more flying than I deserved! Do you know why? Because the people are nice!

I’m an enlisted man in the Air Force, so I don’t make a bunch of money. However, I’ve been able to live out a dream and be involved with warbirds strictly through the generousity and kindness of the people that have been blessed enough to have the financial means to play this game. Over the years, I learned enough about working on them to make myself useful. Even if it was only in my own mind, I became important in my own little corner of the warbird world.

By the way, not all of the owners are really that wealthy! I know some that just barely scrape by and put every disposable dollar into their planes.

Don’t be mad at people like Steve because they have made a succesful life and are able to enjoy it they way they do. A bunch of them are quite willing to share the spoils with those of us that haven’t quite made it there yet.

Just in case you didn’t realize it, the warbirds that we all love: P-40, Corsair, Spitfire, T-6 etc… have been out of the price range of most of us “regular guys” for many years. If your interested, I know where you can find a bunch of migs that are still very cheap.

Do what I did, buy a plane that has to be rebuilt. It may be more expensive in the long run, but sometimes it’s more viable if the cost can be spread out over a few years. I knew a long time ago that I’d never be able to get me a P-47, but I’m quite happy with my Rawdon T-1 project.

Take a look at these links and you can see some of the good fortune I’ve had because of some of the warbird owners that you hate so much.

Brad

http://community.webshots.com/user/bradleypilgrim
http://community.webshots.com/user/bradleypilgrim1
http://community.webshots.com/user/bradleypilgrim2

im not saying they are all bad, but most of the ones i have met ARE.

i stated my opnion on this board and got flamed, even though i still dont think im being nasty, just stating my experience and ofcourse im going to retort to these people.

not all are bad, but most of the people ive had dealings with are, thats all.

im not saying your turning profit for flying it but i bet your flying it for free on peoples donations.

and yes planes are sponsored, seen the red bull planes lately?? seen BP signs all over matt dennings boomerang?

Mr. Kittyhawk.

The Red Bull planes aren’t sponsored by the company in the usual sense. They are owned by the company. (yes I know it’s a fine line, but it is still a distinction).

If a company decides to sponsor an airplane in return for advertising, that’s completly different than a donation.

Brad

Mr. Kittyhawk,

I might know why you may have been treated shabby by a warbird owner or two over the years. Could it be your nasty disposition? I’ve seen your type at airshows. Fortunately, these people have been few and far between.

I grew up in West Texas, where warbirds have always been plentiful. Because most of the owners were nice folks and had an interest in the future of aviation, they took me flying in their planes. They let me be involved with their crews at airshows and made me feel like I was important. This all started when I was about eleven. Twenty years later, I’m still friends with them, have met many more just like them and partially because of them I have had a life long love with aviation and history. As well as a twenty year involvement with warbirds.

Up until I moved to South Carolina six months ago, I was living in Washington State. I had the keys to the hangers and near total freedom with a collection of warbirds worth several million dollars. On top of that, I had access to several other warbirds in the Pacific Northwest. I helped with maintenance and got to fly in return. I did alot more flying than I deserved! Do you know why? Because the people are nice!

I’m an enlisted man in the Air Force, so I don’t make a bunch of money. However, I’ve been able to live out a dream and be involved with warbirds strictly through the generousity and kindness of the people that have been blessed enough to have the financial means to play this game. Over the years, I learned enough about working on them to make myself useful. Even if it was only in my own mind, I became important in my own little corner of the warbird world.

By the way, not all of the owners are really that wealthy! I know some that just barely scrape by and put every disposable dollar into their planes.

Don’t be mad at people like Steve because they have made a succesful life and are able to enjoy it they way they do. A bunch of them are quite willing to share the spoils with those of us that haven’t quite made it there yet.

Just in case you didn’t realize it, the warbirds that we all love: P-40, Corsair, Spitfire, T-6 etc… have been out of the price range of most of us “regular guys” for many years. If your interested, I know where you can find a bunch of migs that are still very cheap.

Do what I did, buy a plane that has to be rebuilt. It may be more expensive in the long run, but sometimes it’s more viable if the cost can be spread out over a few years. I knew a long time ago that I’d never be able to get me a P-47, but I’m quite happy with my Rawdon T-1 project.

Take a look at these links and you can see some of the good fortune I’ve had because of some of the warbird owners that you hate so much.

Brad

http://community.webshots.com/user/bradleypilgrim
http://community.webshots.com/user/bradleypilgrim1
http://community.webshots.com/user/bradleypilgrim2