"Patty's A VIRGIN"

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. 🙂

I don’t mind agreeing or disagreeing with you (and any other participant of this thread) on this or other topics, but I didn’t think that was the point of this thread, was it?
You have started with the question

So what is going on here?

A lot of posts have been done, but I don’t think anybody has reached conclusion as to the final answer to it, as far as we discuss the 602 Sqn machine. The reason I always enjoy discussing things on this forum, and with you in particular, is that this gives us all the opportunity to learn something. But for that, we have to talk facts. I will gladly accept your view, if you care to tell me where is the fault in my reasoning.
I will deal with the doubts below:
Question 1:
It took the forum members about 40 minutes to identify the shape of the shield with 602 Sqn badge, so the theory that just the Scottish Lion was removed when

a directive was given to “remove or paint out any markings that could directly be attributable to a squadron or unit”

is very naive to say the least.
What do you think?

Sorry Mark, I was referring to the red and white Polish logos.

I didn’t seriously think the white bits on your photos had faded/deteriorated!

After all, it was me who first suggested that they were painted out for security reasons just like you’re saying.

Well a possible reason I can think of that might make the paint deteriorate and fade so quickly is they have been unable to source the correct standard RAF paint, so have used locally sourced paint of the right colour.

This happened often the the wartime RNZAF where they had to make do due to shortages, so I can’t see why it might not have happened elsewhere.

And perhaps this paint they sourced wasn’t up to the job, it make not have been able to handle the heat from the engine and exhausts, or maybe was broken down by oil. There are numerous possibilities because different paints have different properties.

If they’d used the proper paint and mixed it right, it should last much longer thab 10 months. But there’s another point, perhaps it was the correct paint but was not mixed correctly and not enough hardner was used or something of that nature.

…or perhaps it was just painted out for security reasons, at the time the stripes were applied, as it readily identified the aircraft with 602 Sqd.

Mark

Well a possible reason I can think of that might make the paint deteriorate and fade so quickly is they have been unable to source the correct standard RAF paint, so have used locally sourced paint of the right colour.

This happened often the the wartime RNZAF where they had to make do due to shortages, so I can’t see why it might not have happened elsewhere.

And perhaps this paint they sourced wasn’t up to the job, it make not have been able to handle the heat from the engine and exhausts, or maybe was broken down by oil. There are numerous possibilities because different paints have different properties.

If they’d used the proper paint and mixed it right, it should last much longer thab 10 months. But there’s another point, perhaps it was the correct paint but was not mixed correctly and not enough hardner was used or something of that nature.

Voy Tech,

As I said in my previous post:-

“In both cases the ‘Artwork’ may yet to have been applied but for my money …”

In that post also was my theory on the erosion of your Polish emblem, the style and process of the application and the reason why as a spray paint, very thinly applied, could well account for the rapid erosion.

Yes I have made a protracted personal hands on study of the paint erosion and fading on a good number of Spitfires particularly those in harsh climates such as India and Burma. I have seen Indian serials overpainted on RAF serials eroded to the point where a black serial has gone leaving a perfect mask in white of the serial on the next colour down the laminate of paint.

I did note that even ‘Oscar Duck’s’ Avenger was being detailed with a well loaded paint brush.

I just can’t see dark colour hand painted detail bleaching, fading or eroding in such a short time.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. 🙂

Mark

First, I do not see any connection between these two Spitfires. As you might recall, I can’t normally post pictures on weekend, but tomorrow I will post a picture of another Spitfire with an empty, white base waiting for the badge to be applied. That Spitfire was photographed in 1941, clearly nothing to do with pre-invasion regulations. So in my opinion the US Spitfire is just that: waiting to have the badge applied. My argument is only related to the 602 one.

Typically for stencils, sprayed on paint is the choice.
In the case of
the 602 Squadron ‘Lion Rampant’
the complex individual artwork will have been laminated on using a well loaded artist’s brush.

602 Sqn did apply their emblem (the lion, not the shield) using template/airbrush technique (picture tomorrow).

Total erosion of the Lion would leave a profile of the lion in white on a camouflaged shield profile that was a couple of tones greater than the surrounding area, as each layer protects the layer underneath during the erosion process.

You surely know a whole lot more than me about paint erosion etc. However, I meant fading (i. e. discolouration) plus film/filter effect, rather than physical erosion of the paint.

for my money the most logical explanation is that pre D-Day, a directive was given to “remove or paint out any ‘personal’ markings that could directly be attributable to a squadron or unit”. Oh yes and while you are there “stick some black and white stripes on the fuse and wings”.

I still can’t see why it should be logical.
First, the shield is as much “directly attributable to a squadron or unit” as the whole badge (I can’t think of any other Spitfire squadron at the time using this shape and position of unit emblem). If the high brass, hypothetically, said “remove all the emblems” that’s what they meant, not just “remove the part that you think important and leave something else that you might find convenient for future use”.
Second, considering how hastily the D-Day stripes were applied in most cases, I would be surprised if the groud crew preferred the complicated technique of retouching the white shield, rather than just overpaint/overspray the badge.
Third, exactly how much money do you want to bet on your theory?

PS. I still wait for theories as to the 315 Sqn Mk V’s Polish marking: faded(eroded), overpainted, or something else?

It sure is. I took the photos when we painted her in April 1993. The artist was Sergeant Trevor Platt, an aircraft technician.

You can see many more of my photos at this thread from earlier in the year
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23376&highlight=plonky

Hey that’s my Avenger receiving her old colours….

Did AiB drink all your Spitfire then?

Great, now I’ve got a paint scheme and nose art…all I need is the Spitfire!

Why don’t you all f…f…f…fade away.

Voy Tech,

With apologies to ‘The Who’, here are my reasons why I do not buy the fading theory.

In the case of your Polish emblem I think this can be explained as follows. This is not a hand painted emblem, marked out and masked with tape for each individual aircraft. In my view the emblem is a two part stencil comprising a square and the word ‘POLAND’, to apply the white. Poland is clearly a stencil in your shots. After application of the white, a second mask or template has been overlain to apply the red squares and broken border. It is possible to ‘stub’ paint on using a stencil but that does not work well with hand brushed on paint. Typically for stencils, sprayed on paint is the choice. Thickness of the spray applied red is down to the painter but I would suggest just a few microns of red in this case and it is fading and eroding fast. Spitfires were painted in both Cellulose and Synthetic paints.

In the case of both the 602 Squadron ‘Lion Rampant’ and the 308 FS ‘Cat and Star’, whilst the respective base shield and circle may be spray applied using a template, the complex individual artwork will have been laminated on using a well loaded artist’s brush. The ultimate thickness of this artwork paint in some areas may well be 20x thicker than the base white profiles. Cellulose paint does not lend itself to brush application.

For this artwork to have faded and eroded so completely but to have left the base profiles so pristine in such a short time is not tenable in my view.

In the case of the 602 Squadron Lion let us assume paints of similar properties and thickness. Total erosion of the Lion would leave a profile of the lion in white on a camouflaged shield profile that was a couple of tones greater than the surrounding area, as each layer protects the layer underneath during the erosion process.

In both cases the ‘Artwork’ may yet to have been applied but for my money the most logical explanation is that pre D-Day, a directive was given to “remove or paint out any ‘personal’ markings that could directly be attributable to a squadron or unit”. Oh yes and while you are there “stick some black and white stripes on the fuse and wings”.

Mark

This is a photo of 315 pilots in early 1942, in front of the Spitfire VB AB931 PK-C. (Sorry about the quality, it is a scan of a contact print from a 35 mm neg.) On the side of the cowling you can see a pale square. Is it a faded Polish AF marking, an overpainted Polish AF marking, or something else?

I have that one in the 506th FG Mustang profile pipeline too. Trying to do as many as I can for the 506th FG Association.

The aircraft being 542 is Lil Ole Meanie II which also has some fancy nosea art.

Not shaded, weathered etc yet, but you get the idea. Doing the nose art is a project in itself 🙂

Dan

Dan – that second Mustang would suit my other half down to the ground… 😉

Mark,
The faded Polish AF marking on the cowling of Spitfire IX BS556 RF-G. The photo was taken at Northolt on 24 June 1943, the aeroplane had been with Polish units since mid-April.

and to continue the thread of noseart a bit further – here’s a ship of the 506th FG (similar to those in Dan’s postings), but with the addition of an adaption of a Vargas Girl:

Martin / Swiss Mustangs

I have that one in the 506th FG Mustang profile pipeline too. Trying to do as many as I can for the 506th FG Association.

The aircraft being 542 is Lil Ole Meanie II which also has some fancy nosea art.

Not shaded, weathered etc yet, but you get the idea. Doing the nose art is a project in itself 🙂

Dan

Gee Voy Tech, that 602 dark ‘Lion Rampant’ sure has faded badly in just 10 months

Mark, the book “Spitfire IX and XVI of Polish Airmen” includes a sequence of photos of a Spitfire, BS556 RF-G, being refuelled. I don’t have the book at hand, but guess you have it. 😉 In one of the shots you have a close-up of the Polish insignia which is very badly faded, and yet that particular Spitfire had only been with Polish units for two months or so (incidentally – April to June 1943, matching the season we are talking about here). So I guess 10 months time is enough for a badge to fade completely. And with a proper combination of film/filter you can ‘fade’ it to white. I’ll try and find some scans by tomorrow.

I am seriously doubtful about this theory. Can you imagine fitters carefully removing the colour part of badges on aircraft but leaving the white base? If they did it by hand – very time consuming. If they used templates – it would be so much easier to overpaint the entire thing with one stroke of a wide brush, and then use the very template to reapply a fresh white base a couple of weeks later when the badge was allowed again.
To me that on the 602 Spitfire would just be a very faded emblem, probably combined with a film/filter combination that made the colour part virtually invisible in the photo. What was the colour of 602 Sqn badge (I understand it was just one colour on top of the white shield)?

Gee Voy Tech, that 602 dark ‘Lion Rampant’ sure has faded badly in just 10 months and that is the absolute maximum time span 602 had Mk IX’s and assumes the photo was taken in late June 1944.

In both cases I believe a fitter or painter just painted out the whole badge to the periphery by hand in one colour….five minutes per aircraft tops.

I’ll send you high resolution.

Mark

If, as I am now leaning toward, this was a directive from on high to cover up ‘intelligence’ related artwork, one can see that both these examples are covering identifiable Unit Crests/Emblems rather than general ‘nose art’. Indeed finely ‘whited out’ so that replacement at a later date would be all the easier rather than just blowing it over with camouflage.

I am seriously doubtful about this theory. Can you imagine fitters carefully removing the colour part of badges on aircraft but leaving the white base? If they did it by hand – very time consuming. If they used templates – it would be so much easier to overpaint the entire thing with one stroke of a wide brush, and then use the very template to reapply a fresh white base a couple of weeks later when the badge was allowed again.
To me that on the 602 Spitfire would just be a very faded emblem, probably combined with a film/filter combination that made the colour part virtually invisible in the photo. What was the colour of 602 Sqn badge (I understand it was just one colour on top of the white shield)?

and to continue the thread of noseart a bit further – here’s a ship of the 506th FG (similar to those in Dan’s postings), but with the addition of an adaption of a Vargas Girl:

Martin / Swiss Mustangs

If, as I am now leaning toward, this was a directive from on high to cover up ‘intelligence’ related artwork, one can see that both these examples are covering identifiable Unit Crests/Emblems rather than general ‘nose art’. Indeed finely ‘whited out’ so that replacement at a later date would be all the easier rather than just blowing it over with camouflage.

It easy to forget that unit codes were just that, ‘codes’. Sixty odd years later we know many off by heart but the objective at the time was to conceal from the enemy. I suspect they became so unwieldy that plans to change them with some frequency faded.

The Israelis certainly were and still are a bit ‘touchy’ about unit badges on photographs. Official released photos of Spitfires can have the unit badges ‘doctored’ by the censor.

Rummaging around I have found this shot from Chuck Brown of his Spitfire “Jo” showing the the full 308 FS insignia.

Mark