Putin orders Russian special forces into Iraq.

We are talking about the same thing if the documentary you saw was the same broadcast in the UK on Channel 4 recently. I don’t know if it can be downloaded so people can make up their own minds.

The Pentagon confirmed the Russian exercise was monitored by two American Los Angeles class nuclear attack subs, and both USS Memphis (SSN-691)and USS Toledo (SSN-769) were in the area. I am sure there are enough experts in the Naval forum that know more about Mk 48 torpedoes and their characteristics than me. Perhaps someone could enlighten us. We don’t know if the subs were ‘head on’ or ‘side on’ to cause the hole where it was. In addition, the entry hole was too neat to be caused by a collision or explosion. There could have been more than one torpedo fired.

The Russians are no more stupid than other nations but sh$t happens. They cut out the bow section but could not cut off the hull section with one of the holes as the purpose of the salvage was to recover the bodies of the sailors. Most of the bodies were found in the mid section near the conning tower.

The USS Toledo would have been damaged in the collision 12 August 2000 and had to limp to Norway to get repairs done but at I doubt if they’ll ever release dates and type of damage as normally classified.

Even if there were a collision why the hell go and SINK the other sub? :rolleyes:

I saw the French documentary…there were more holes in that goofy story than the sub itself.
The TV show had some UK based “ex-submariner” (not an expert in US weapons) say the US torpedo was specifically designed to go to that precise part of a Russian sub. I believe in precision weapons, but I don’t think anyone’s torpedos are THAT precise (to go X many feet in back of the bow or some other nonsense).
Also ignored was the point that the Dutch salvage company cut the whole…and the fact if it WAS a US torpedo entry hole…why did the Russians show it to the media for a couple of days before coving it up? Come on, the Russians are not that stupid.

We are talking about the same thing if the documentary you saw was the same broadcast in the UK on Channel 4 recently. I don’t know if it can be downloaded so people can make up their own minds.

The Pentagon confirmed the Russian exercise was monitored by two American Los Angeles class nuclear attack subs, and both USS Memphis (SSN-691)and USS Toledo (SSN-769) were in the area. I am sure there are enough experts in the Naval forum that know more about Mk 48 torpedoes and their characteristics than me. Perhaps someone could enlighten us. We don’t know if the subs were ‘head on’ or ‘side on’ to cause the hole where it was. In addition, the entry hole was too neat to be caused by a collision or explosion. There could have been more than one torpedo fired.

The Russians are no more stupid than other nations but sh$t happens. They cut out the bow section but could not cut off the hull section with one of the holes as the purpose of the salvage was to recover the bodies of the sailors. Most of the bodies were found in the mid section near the conning tower.

The USS Toledo would have been damaged in the collision 12 August 2000 and had to limp to Norway to get repairs done but at I doubt if they’ll ever release dates and type of damage as normally classified.

The Russian military was run out of Afganistan by 19th century tribesmen.

19th century tribesmen? or 20th century terrorists backed by OIL and Drug money of around the world not to mention free flow of weopons and training and unlimited men power.

The Russian military didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory in Chechnya. Grozny for example where it appearently forgot everything it learned in WW11 about street fighting.

so how else they should fight?. In that time UAV technology was not that advanced nor tanks that protected. and hard currency to buy loyalties was another problem. u have to use what u have.

I am sure the list could be expanded.

for example?

It would be interesting to see what resources they could bring together in Iraq. It would have to be more than a few guys in black outfits with no InTel, air support, etc and no experience working with the locals not to mention the new Iraq government.

Sauron

no experiance and intel? Arabs fought all there wars with russian weopons. i am sure russians know alot about them.

Nice, Plawolf 😀

It’s wonderful news that Putin is fighting terrorists.

Sauron is right about Russian incompetence and cover-up, possibly even deliberate murder of their own men so they’d carry this to their graves. I’m surprised no one has mentioned footage shown recently in the UK of the raised Kursk hull before it was covered (Dutch salvage company had to agree to cut off bow damaged section and leave on the seabed as the explanation that a loose “mine” may have caused the explosion would be disproved). Cutting the bow off still left one of the signature clean “inward” torpedo holes just under the conning tower (apparently targeted area) caused by Mk 48s fired by the American Sub Memphis after the American Sub Toledo collided with the Kursk was clearly visible. All the Russian Northern Fleet officers who wanted the truth out were fired by Putin as some of the sailors were alive for days after it sank as proved by dated messages found on dead sailors. The funeral of the 118 dead sailors was touching. We expect this behaviour from the ex-head of the KGB but the sad thing is the Americans were complicit in this cover up.

I saw the French documentary…there were more holes in that goofy story than the sub itself.
The TV show had some UK based “ex-submariner” (not an expert in US weapons) say the US torpedo was specifically designed to go to that precise part of a Russian sub. I believe in precision weapons, but I don’t think anyone’s torpedos are THAT precise (to go X many feet in back of the bow or some other nonsense).
Also ignored was the point that the Dutch salvage company cut the whole…and the fact if it WAS a US torpedo entry hole…why did the Russians show it to the media for a couple of days before coving it up? Come on, the Russians are not that stupid.

Well if you ask me Sauron i would like to broaden the view and take it to the next level. I think the special Russian team is doing his homework on the actual ground considering what the condition is. Reason for doing this Its obvious that the American is preparing to pull out of the mess and the vaccum has to be filled by someone. Yes agreed Putin can not afford such excursions but may be he has been promised incentives in the form of Oil from Iraq(or this is exactly what the team is their to access). American got what he came here for, Contracts awardsed to major American firms thus ensure their economy for a decade or so.
I ll agree this may b a bit far fetched but something on the sameline is being done. No other point to send a team which is dependant on almost another force with both not particularly brothers when it comes to trusting each other.
Comments?

A-2-S

Why do we need to go down the conspiracy route?

Outline what you think the Russians would need to pull it off – manpower, vehicles, aircraft, weapons, intel, cooperation ,etc.

Sauron

Okay lets c it as a conspiracy. Lets persume that the Russian diplomats were not taken by Terrorists but rather Allied forces who saw them as being a hurdle in their objectives or vice versa… How would the russians start? They have to get information from the people who are already their, which means the Americans and their sources. So for practical matter the russians could be fed any information regarding the mystery group of people and they will have to buy it even if they dont like it. So in other words if this is actually more then propaganda on Putin’s part , then would end up only doing chors on US wishlist.
Comments guys?

They have performed poorly have they, please…explain…..

The Russian military was run out of Afganistan by 19th century tribesmen.

The Russian military didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory in Chechnya. Grozny for example where it appearently forgot everything it learned in WW11 about street fighting.

I am sure the list could be expanded.

It would be interesting to see what resources they could bring together in Iraq. It would have to be more than a few guys in black outfits with no InTel, air support, etc and no experience working with the locals not to mention the new Iraq government.

Sauron

Nice, Plawolf 😀

It’s wonderful news that Putin is fighting terrorists.

Perhaps the former head of the KGB can at the same time solve which “terrorists” caused those mysterious bombings and explosions in Moscow that help create such a climate of fear that shot up his ratings just before he was elected as the “strong leader” that Russian so needed. The Chechans were conveniently blamed despite no evidence and Putin could order strikes in Chechnaya to appear strong for internal consumption but the “miscreants” that caused so many deaths still have yet to be apprehended 😉

Sauron is right about Russian incompetence and cover-up, possibly even deliberate murder of their own men so they’d carry this to their graves. I’m surprised no one has mentioned footage shown recently in the UK of the raised Kursk hull before it was covered (Dutch salvage company had to agree to cut off bow damaged section and leave on the seabed as the explanation that a loose “mine” may have caused the explosion would be disproved). Cutting the bow off still left one of the signature clean “inward” torpedo holes just under the conning tower (apparently targeted area) caused by Mk 48s fired by the American Sub Memphis after the American Sub Toledo collided with the Kursk was clearly visible. All the Russian Northern Fleet officers who wanted the truth out were fired by Putin as some of the sailors were alive for days after it sank as proved by dated messages found on dead sailors. The funeral of the 118 dead sailors was touching. We expect this behaviour from the ex-head of the KGB but the sad thing is the Americans were complicit in this cover up.

It seems KGB methods continue with the FSB, as saliors’ wives complaining about this cover up during a press conference were given “shots”, injections of drugs, that literally knocked them out in mid flow and they were quickly bundled out. Unfortunately for the FSB the cameras in the press conference picked all this up.

The Russians are serious ba$tards, pardon my french. If Putin has gone so far as to make this public, the threat and intent is serious.

There is the famous story of a Russian diplomat who was captured in the ME. His finger or ear was delivered to the embassy…the KGB captured the brother & other relatives of one of the abductors and sent a head back, with the gonads in the mouth, sewed shut…the diplomat was released..so the story goes.

The Russians do that and they’re “serious *******s”. If the US did that they’d be “barbaric butchers” and it would make the headlines round the world. Gotta love hypocracy.

Well said Plawolf.

Finally, someone who is talking sense 🙂

You don’t see the point because you are covering your eyes and ears.
Why did so many countries helped the Tsunami victims? Bush or Blair and
the rest are not Thai or Indonisian, so why send help? Why did NATO go to
Kosovo or why some nations sent troops to Darfur? they are not Kosovars
or Sudanese so why be concerned?

If Iraq is not his concern then what did those diplomat do there in the first
place?

I’m…speachless. I find it astonishing that someone can believe with what I have just read above. Surely you can see the gaping gulf of difference between a HUMANITARIAN AID effort and MILITARY INTERVENTION!

How many locals did the international tsunami relief effort kill and how many were killed in kosovo and Iraq? It might come as a shock to some, but most rational people find it one thing to choose to send aid to help the needy and quite another to drop bombs on them to achieve their ‘liberation’. :rolleyes:

Did the Russians not send aid to help the tsunami victims or donate aid to help with the reconstruction?

Purhaps an example will make it more clear how obserd your original protest is. Terrorists killed thousands of Americans and other nationals on American soil, does that give Nato or the Russians or the Chinese grounds to send troops into America to hunt terrorists? :rolleyes:

Just because you’re are not dropping bombs on people does not mean you do not care.

And so what if Putin cares little about the suffering of others? I did not see the US or UK doing much to stop the genocide in Congo and what did the international community do about the British occupation of Northern Ireland? Every nation puts their own interests first and foremost, and I don’t see why the Russians should be criticised for doing the same. Putin is the president of Russia and not Iraq. Russia and Russians should be his primary concern, if he places the goods of other peoples ahead of Russians, then he is a poor RUSSIAN president.

I find your question regarding the Russian diplomates in Iraq highly amusing. Every nation have diplomats in every other nation, the implications must be mind boggling for you, no? 😀

They have performed poorly have they, please…explain…..

One can only speculate what a Russian “search and destroy” mission might look like in Iraq. Also I don’t think we could rule out a rescue mission at the end of it based on how poorly the Russian military has performed in the last few decades. :rolleyes:

Sauron

What a stupid question, what do u think the Russian diplomats were doing there? Do u think they had intended to get off at Cyprus but caught the wrong flight or something. U know people complain loads about American bashing, yet the Yanks and Canadians don’t seem to have a problem with Russian bashing, is that cos there are no Russians to defend their great nation?
U do know it took “THE WEST” a long time to act against the Serbs and Saddam…they didn’t act instantly. Why do u think they did it, if u think it was out of the kindness of their hearts then ur an IDIOT.
And Alex what the hell are u talking about, what Russia has had to deal with has already had top SAS officals—-YES U KNOW SAS as in Special Air Service, British Special Forces, the ones that are meant to be ranked No. 1 —- admit they would have not been able to do much better in those situations! Are u going to blame the American Special Forces inability to board moving planes for the Sept’ 11 tragedy? No? Why not eh? 😡

Putin is the Russian president, Iraqs are not his concern, but Russians are. I fail to see the point you are trying to make here.

You don’t see the point because you are covering your eyes and ears.
Why did so many countries helped the Tsunami victims? Bush or Blair and
the rest are not Thai or Indonisian, so why send help? Why did NATO go to
Kosovo or why some nations sent troops to Darfur? they are not Kosovars
or Sudanese so why be concerned?

If Iraq is not his concern then what did those diplomat do there in the first
place?

are we watching a movie here? :confused: Putin has plenty of his own problems of “internal” terrorists that he couldn’t solve in 36 hours. :rolleyes: This is most likely just a political move so he can appear strong against any islamic terrorists, which is meant to be for his home audience.

Jeez Louise, I’m not expecting it to be cleared up within 36 hours… But admit it, it would be ironic.

BARNOWL

Being tough is one thing but the Russians have proven they are incapable of an effective responce to situations like the one in hall in Moscow and the school. Many died as a result of blunders on the part of the Russian military. Lets face it thay lack skill and the weapons mix to do anything effective on their own.

Sauron

The terrorist attrocities in Russia are unprecedented in the west, ie, western SF have not carried out hostage rescue ops on such a scale or against such well equiped and trained, numerous and fanatical foes before, so I don’t see how you can judge who is actually better at hostage rescue.

Take the famous SAS raid on the Iranian embassy, that operation was also full of blunders, took way too long and they were very fortunate that the hostage takers were ametures who were lightly armed, poorly led, and unexperienced or else they would have lost a great many more hostages.

And also, just what situation do you think they are dealing with here? The hostages are dead, its not a rescue mission, its a search and destroy op, and the Russians have shown that they excell at such tasks.

So basicaly Putin is unmoved by the terrorist killing thousans
of Iraqis and other nationals, how ever when it reached home
then all of a suden we will show this terrorist……..

Putin is the Russian president, Iraqs are not his concern, but Russians are. I fail to see the point you are trying to make here.