By: Ashley - 22nd February 2002 at 08:45
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
David…in response to your remark…”I also feel that the people who have taken part in numerous operations since and died for their country are just as worthy of interest”…I never said they were not as worthy of interest…I was merely trying to explain WHY I think that the veterans and victims of post-war conflicts are not given the same recognition…
By: kev35 - 21st February 2002 at 23:07
I, too, am upset.
Firstly, I can understand everyone’s sentiments on the relative merits of preserving ‘this’ airframe as opposed to ‘that’ one. I enjoy seeing Spitfires, am still awestruck by my memories of seeing a Lightning recede to a dot high above me seemingly moments after leaving the runway and I would dearly love to see a Hampden or a Stirling. However, here comes the blasphemy, as beautiful, as awe inspiring or as romantic as the image they convey, they are only airframes….
Without the people who designed, built, flew, fought and maintained these wonderful aircraft, they would not have achieved the ‘fame’, (sorry I couldn’t find a better word), that they have. As we approach the 60th anniversary of the end of World War Two, I think it behoves us to record as much oral history as possible before it is too late. The very people who inspired our interest in aviation, are, sadly, reaching the end of their lives. I believe it is time to honour the men and women who breathed life into the aircraft we cherish today.
Reading the short pieces in Flypast regarding those who have recently died becomes more frequent and ever more heart breaking. I unashamedly shed a tear at the passing of those whose very existence helped to shape the life I lead now and the society we live in.
Years ago, when I was too young, too stupid or too naive to appreciate the significance of the event, I stood against the ropes at an airshow gazing with wonder at Sally B, as an American in his sixties stood next to me weeping. He turned away from the aircraft and stumbled. I helped him up and asked if he was o.k. He told me he hadn’t been that close to a B-17 since 1944. He was crying with joy at the memory of an aircraft which brought him safely through his tour and with sadness at the memory of the remains of his closest friend literally being hosed out of the tail of his B-17. I love seeing a B-17 flying in the U.K and sincerely hope Sally B can continue as the tribute the men of the 8th AF so richly deserve., but I would swap all of my memories of Sally B to be able to spend just one hour talking to that unknown American waist gunner……
Whew! I bet you’re glad that’s over.
Regards,
kev35
By: David J Burke - 21st February 2002 at 19:56
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Ashley – Interesting point’s. Many would argue that the switching of attacks from the air defence network to the bombing of London saved
the R.A.F and gave them time to regroup. The German’s I don’t believe actually had the capability to invade Britain at that time using the resourses at their disposal. Bearing in mind that the Royal Navy was the largest Navy in existance at that time – they would have been foolish to attempt any kind of major naval operation in the Channel.
Certainly they didn’t have effective landing ships and the barges assembled in the occupied territories wouldn’t have been entirely suitable.
The British learnt a number of lessons from the Dieppe operation which greatly influenced the equipment and tactics for D Day . The German’s hadn’t used amphibious assault in a large scale and I think
that it would have been a bloodbath for them if they had attempted it.
Regards your other points – yes WWII did have a massive impact on a large number of people but I also feel that the people who have taken part in numerous operations since and died for their country are just as worthy of interest.
By: David J Burke - 21st February 2002 at 19:40
RE: Still Upsets Me
The Lightning believe it or not is guarded jealously by her owner through the courts. Numerous people have tried to obtain her but to no avail – let’s hope the end is not long in coming!
By: Bluebird Mike - 21st February 2002 at 19:09
RE: Still Upsets Me
The photos remind me of the old ‘Wales Aircraft Museum’ that used to be next to Cardiff airport. What a horrible place! A few poorly or not at all looked after aircraft, rotting before your eyes; nothing like seeing a Vulcan die to make you see the power of natural erosion…
Interesting point above, too; how many Spitfires do we need? Think of the money, skills and effort that could go into restoring something a bit rarer instead, just for a change…
By: tonydyer - 21st February 2002 at 18:51
RE: Still Upsets Me
>Tony (et al), while on this subject, and noting the word
>’Newark’ in Tony’s original posting, doe anyone know the
>likely future fate of the forlorn looking Lightning in the
>old A1 Commercials yard at the side of the A1 near Newark? I
>pass her every couple of weeks or so, and every time she
>looks worse. Just wish I had the space at home to put her…
>:(
Unfortunately no-one has come forward to save her.
By: Arabella-Cox - 21st February 2002 at 13:33
RE: Still Upsets Me
Tony (et al), while on this subject, and noting the word ‘Newark’ in Tony’s original posting, doe anyone know the likely future fate of the forlorn looking Lightning in the old A1 Commercials yard at the side of the A1 near Newark? I pass her every couple of weeks or so, and every time she looks worse. Just wish I had the space at home to put her… 🙁
By: Ashley - 21st February 2002 at 09:11
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Like you said David…it’s very much a matter of scale…I certainly do not remember saying that no young lives were lost in the Falklands War or that freedom and civil liberties were not at stake…but it was a war on an entirely different scale…in 1940 the freedom of the world was at stake…it was freedom on a much smaller scale…you said it yourself that both sides were fighting for what they perceived as the liberation of the Falkland Islands from the “other side”…in 1940 the battle was waged against a tyrant hell bent on domination and destruction on a mass scale…
Yes you are right that it is a sad fact of life that post-war conflicts such as Korea are not given the same recognition as the events of the Second World War and this is extremely regrettable…but maybe this is because the Second World War affected more lives then any other conflict in the 20th century?
And as for those few months in 1940? Well I truly believe that had it not been for the fighter pilots and even more so, Britain’s fledgling radar system…the war may, just may have taken a different direction…
By: tonydyer - 20th February 2002 at 21:34
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Moggy & Ashley
do not worry, I do not take it as an attack on what I do! Being a crank in this hobby has long attracted much worse attacks!!. You will be glad to know that the lavishing of money I spent on the Pucara is a measley £200 over the years and that included purchase and transport!
Regarding the excellent East Kirby Hampden started by the much missed Brian, well it is a laudable project. Though, I choose to spend my time and resources on my other projects which some may say are worthy….notably my dream becoming reality of creating a Hurricane 1 from other’s junk/scrap and my nose/cockpit sections from a Swift F7, Hunter F1 & F6 and the Puke.
Preservation in the UK is a funny subject. Much of the UK’s aviation heritage lies in scrap yards ‘cos no-one cares to save it. The times I hear armchair enthusiasts lamenting that an aircraft should be saved without getting up and doing something! Although not my cup of tea, General Aviation heritage is poorly represented in the UK’s aviation museums. Fortunately some museums are remedying this. Like it or lump it, some aircraft are considered ‘better’ and more worthy than others….for example spits over Hurris Whirlwinds etc.
Thanx for the discussion….I just wish more people, particularly armchair enthusiasts did their bit for preservation like us.
By: David J Burke - 20th February 2002 at 21:05
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
I have been interested in the East Kirkby Hampden project for a number of years and I was a friend of the late Brain Nichols who actually started the project while he was stationed at Coningsby.
The is no shortage of finances to carry out the project – it’s very
much a case that the guys up there work at their own pace and with the scarcity of Hampden information it just takes time to research
and build.
By: David J Burke - 20th February 2002 at 20:58
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Ashley – It’s very much a matter of scale. The is no dispute that the
Falkland islanders had their freedom and democratic rights removed by the Argentine forces. On the Argentine side they were fighting for the ‘liberation’ of islands which they believed to be rightfully their’s – in their terms they were bringing freedom to people who were occupied by a foreign nation i.e Great Britain.
The war was fought by young men and indeed two hundred and fifty
British lives were lost – the loss of the cruiser ‘General Belgrano’
cost the Argentinian’s hundreds of men lost at sea.
It’s an unfortunate fact of life that since 1940 an enormous
number of servicemen have died in conflicts which do not either receive the recognition or interest of a few months in 1940.
In terms of the FMA Pucara’s contribution to history it was a very real threat to British forces in 1982 and as such it deserves to be preserved.
By: Arabella-Cox - 20th February 2002 at 18:43
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Now now Ashley, don’t go forgetting dear old X7688. A pair of Beaufighter’s in formation, mmmm, the stuff that dreams are made of. They’re both a long way off though…
By: Ashley - 20th February 2002 at 17:11
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-02-02 AT 05:12 PM (GMT)]And one more thing…going back to Sadsack’s post: “Yeah, but think of 1945 and the number of airframes that were not thought of as special”
Well in 1945, I would have thought that the priority of most people lay with rebuilding their lives after 6 long years of war in which so many lost their lives and others lost loved ones, their homes, their possessions…
By: Ashley - 20th February 2002 at 17:09
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-02-02 AT 05:09 PM (GMT)]Well Moggy…hopefully we will see a Beaufighter take to the skies again (in the hands of the Fighter Collection) without sacrificing any Spitfires 😉
By: Moggy C - 20th February 2002 at 16:29
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
>Yeah, but think of 1945 and the number of airframes that
>were not thought of as special. Its better to preserve as
>many as possible surely?
Yes, as long as resources are sufficient. But they patently aren’t
How many ‘museums’ have you been to where sad derelict hulks lie rusting away surrounded by unkempt grass? Aren’t they the saddest sights in the universe. I’d rather they’d crashed to earth in glorious combat and destroyed themselves decently (With the crew floating gently to earth on their chutes you understand)
We have to admit that resources are finite. Therfore what resouces there are shouldn’t IMO be frittered away on the 47th Mirage or 5th Pucara.
After WW2 they did save a lot of Spitfires, in museums, as gate guardians etc.
Personally I’d sacrifice half the current Spitfire population if it could bring us flying examples of Whitley, Hampden, Halifax, Stirling, Skua, Roc, Beaufighter, Whirlwind, Typhoon, Beaufort, DO17, JU88, FW190, JU87 BF109, BF110.
Wouldn’t you?
Moggy
By: SADSACK - 20th February 2002 at 15:35
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Yeah, but think of 1945 and the number of airframes that were not thought of as special. Its better to preserve as many as possible surely?
By: Ashley - 20th February 2002 at 13:36
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Hmmmm…I can see Moggy’s point…yes it is sad when an aircraft is scrapped, but it is worth remembering that there are other examples of the type on display in museums…
While the Puccara was a significant player in the Falklands War, I certainly do not see it as the “modern equivalent” of the Me109 or other Luftwaffe aircraft…to me, the symbolism is different…the Me109 to me represents a war where young men, aged 18, 19, from two different nations faced each other the skies over the south of England, fighting for two very different ideals…with freedom and democracy at stake…the Puccara served in a different war entirely…
At least there are still some examples of the Puccara on display…I can think of a few aircraft we no longer have the luxury of seeing…the Stirling being the first to mind…I’m sure the rest of you can come up with a few more…
Please do not take the above views as an attack on your views and interest in the aircraft Tony…much respect to you in your efforts to salvage part of the aircraft…I can’t help being a girl stuck in the summer of 1940…it must have something to do with working at Duxford 🙂
By: Moggy C - 20th February 2002 at 13:11
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Tony,
Just put the topic up to provoke dicussion. Definitely isn’t an attack on you OK? 🙂
However you have sort of made my point.
“You will be glad to hear that the only resources/time/funds it now soaks up are mine!”
There’s a fine chap toiling away in a shed at East Kirkby trying to bring the Hampden back to life. If you weren’t spending your money on the Pucara couldn’t you have given it to him and accelerated that project for instance?
Moggy
By: EHVB - 20th February 2002 at 13:00
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
I agree with you that it is a part of the modern history. Scrapping the aircraft,according to me, can not be justified, . I think that you are right that other preservation groups/musea or others, should have liked to include it in their collection. Scrapping it was a waste. At least the cockpit survives, but, when I look to the photo, it must be severely damaged by the machine that was used to demolish the aircraft.
By: tonydyer - 20th February 2002 at 12:51
RE: Doesn’t Upset Me
Not alot I can say to that Moggy!
It is the more modern equivalent of an Me109/Luftwaffe aircraft as a spoil of war. It would have been nice for one of the other museums in UK to have been given the chance to save it all….It is all a case of choice. Regarding its place in history….well it has a place in Falklands history. This particular airframe came back from one raid with 58 strikes in the fuselage and 4 in one engine.
You will be glad to hear that the only resources/time/funds it now soaks up are mine!
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February 19, 2002 at 8:45 pm
