The Washington Sniper —- Death???

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

“But most states claim to be there for the good of their own people,…”

So States can murder for the good of their own people… so a serial rapist that has raped 40 women is good for society?
A serial killer with the remains of a few dozen raped and murdered children in his basement is good for society?

I think you have answered your own question… you just can’t admit it.

“That’s a sick argument. Then why not kill elderly, disabled and ill people as well? “

Now when resources are available and there is room it is a sick argument. It took till the early 1800s to get to 1 billion people, till the early 1920s to get to 2 billion and now we have tripled that in less than a century to 6 billion. How much room will there be in 100 years?

Besides in most cultures other than western the elderly perform a function… babysitter, while the disabled can also contribute in meaningful ways. Many terminally ill are currently fighting for the right to die when they want in many countries.

“But at least a life-long sentence can be reverted if it’s proven some judge made a mistake, preferred believing the attorney in stead of your pro-deo lawyer. “

I am not suggesting that just anyone be toasted in the electric chair for not paying parking tickets… I am suggesting repeat offenders or those who purpetrate particularly vulgar crimes should be given a one way trip to soilville.
In this case two men stalked and shot over 10 people, this wasn’t a crime of passion, a spur of the moment anger problem or a mistake. Being molested as a child or bullied at school doesn’t make this sort of person.

“I thought they are going to create some room near the Euphrates and Tigris rivers?”

Perhaps when the radiation clears?

“(Australia) Surely it’s not full already?

Nah, they mutate into sheep “

Nahh I heard they do something else to sheep… }> (Sorry cheap shot 🙁 )

“Also (and this was mentioned above already), i think it’s quite a cheap argument to advocate a cut on this-or-that sector of government spending because some other sector is in your eyes getting too much. I think the British healthcare system can do better with better spreading of the resources. Same as here. “

Resources are thin now with mismanagement and error. What happens in 50 years time with 12 billion people on Earth and an aging population?

“But keeping murderers in luxury? “

Perhaps living in a wealthy western country has blinded you to the fact that not everyone has access to sky TV… even if they can only watch it for a few hours a day. Regular meals, no rent, a guard to tuck you in at night. In New Zealand it costs about $54,000 per inmate.
Half a million for every decade the offender spends in prison.
If there is no chance of release then it is half a million wasted.

“You commit the crime you should have a rudimentary idea of the punishment you are liable to receive. You are a multiple murderer or child killer you should expect to die. As simple as that. You forefeit any right to be treated with humanity or consideration.”

Yes, the death penalty should not be seen as a deterrent. It is just a reliable way of preventing reoffending by those who have proven they can’t be rehabilitated or are beyond rehabilitation.

And don’t go suggesting that everyone is good deep down and with the right treatment can become model citizens.
I am old enough to know some people are just scumbags.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Arthur.

“But keeping murderers in luxury? I’m not familiar with the prisons in the UK, but the same argument is brought up here in the Netherlands over and over again. Yet you can believe me, that luxury exists mostly in the imagination of people bringing it up.”

UK prisons are grossly overcrowded. But the people we are talking about, serial murderers, child molestors etc., are effectively given far more priveleges to keep them safe from other inmates. They do not share cells and many are kept in secure hospital units where they are even allowed out on supervised shopping trips! They are given access to literature, tv, education and other hobbies. The person they murdered has access to the inside of a coffin lid!

“And add to that the fact that imprisonment means imprisonment. Being locked up. Unable to leave.”

You commit the crime you should have a rudimentary idea of the punishment you are liable to receive. You are a multiple murderer or child killer you should expect to die. As simple as that. You forefeit any right to be treated with humanity or consideration.

“Knowing that when you get out, you’ll be there empty-handed.”

Not strictly true. The Moors Murderer, Ian Brady, has had book published about serial murderers. He cannot receive the money he earns as he is serving a whole life tarriff. But the beneficiaries of his will are going to profit. In other cases, prisoners can have that money on release.

“If you’ve ever spent one night in a cell you might understand what i’m talking about.”

If you’ve ever spent one night on a ward with just three staff to care for 34 patients, twenty of whom need turning every two hours, six are on half hourly observations, two are wanderers and have to be watched and two who are on death’s door and should, really, be taking up much of your time, you might understand what I’m talking about.

You, nor I, are likely to change our views but it is interesting to debate them.

Regards,

kev35

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

I know I would rather see the money we waste on
keeping murderers in luxury diverted to the people who need
it most. I know it’s emotive Arthur, but have you ever had
to watch someone die because there are no intensive care
beds available?

Yes, i’ve seen such things happen unfortunately. On the other side of the Channel – and i’ve seen mentally ill patients tied to their beds for weeks since that was the best way to keep them from harm with too few people available, and i can go on for a while.

But keeping murderers in luxury? I’m not familiar with the prisons in the UK, but the same argument is brought up here in the Netherlands over and over again. Yet you can believe me, that luxury exists mostly in the imagination of people bringing it up. And add to that the fact that imprisonment means imprisonment. Being locked up. Unable to leave. Knowing that when you get out, you’ll be there empty-handed. If you’ve ever spent one night in a cell you might understand what i’m talking about. Even if your sheets are clean or if you’ve worked for months to get a TV privilege, prisons are not ‘luxurious’ (although, i agree, conditions in certain hospitals aren’t much better).

Also (and this was mentioned above already), i think it’s quite a cheap argument to advocate a cut on this-or-that sector of government spending because some other sector is in your eyes getting too much. I think the British healthcare system can do better with better spreading of the resources. Same as here.

(Australia) Surely it’s not full already?

Nah, they mutate into sheep 😀

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Arthur.

“That’s a sick argument. Then why not kill elderly, disabled and ill people as well?”

Here in the UK we are. Grossly inadequate health care and resources for the elderly and disabled in the UK are bordering on the criminal. Having worked in the health? service I have seen first hand waht a lack of resources does. I know I would rather see the money we waste on keeping murderers in luxury diverted to the people who need it most. I know it’s emotive Arthur, but have you ever had to watch someone die because there are no intensive care beds available?

“You can’t exile these people to Australia any more…”

Surely it’s not full already?

Regards,

kev35

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

…who said any state is above a little
murder of their own?

None of course. But most states claim to be there for the good of their own people, and in general the state-sponsored murdering is only against terrorists/untermenschen/former employees/ingrateful communists/capitalist pigs/people-whom-i-thought-to-be-on-our-side/enemy football hooligans/pot smoking hippies/etc…

So therefore without states there could be no war and what
can war be other than organised murder?

Legal murder of course! Your country is offering you a great chance to fullfill your homicidal tendencies – join the army now (although it’s not nearly as much fun as it used to be with all this stand-off killing).

The state has a responsibility to be “humaine” you suggest.
I would think locking up someone… even in relative
comfort… with a guarantee they will never leave alive is
not morally better than quickly and painlessly ending their
lives?

I think it is indeed more cruel than offering someone a quick, painful death. Yet in most punitive systems, the death penalty is the highest penalty you can get whereas being behind bars for the rest of your life is considered less cruel (personally i’d go for my shoelaces in such a case). But at least a life-long sentence can be reverted if it’s proven some judge made a mistake, preferred believing the attorney in stead of your pro-deo lawyer.

I have also mentioned there is a question of financial and
material waste involved in keeping members of society that
can no longer be productive for that society.

That’s a sick argument. Then why not kill elderly, disabled and ill people as well? Claiming those people aren’t useful for society is bollocks anyway: those criminals still provide a bad example (“this is what happens to you if you go on a shooting rampage against people you were told not to shoot”), material for books, obscure T-shirt prints… Charlie Manson would have been an even greater myth if he was dead by now.

You can’t exile these people to Australia any more… maybe
we should send them out into space…

I thought they are going to create some room near the Euphrates and Tigris rivers?

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-12-02 AT 04:39 AM (GMT)]”the state lowers itself to the same level of the criminal. “

Come off it Arthur… who said any state is above a little murder of their own?
In fact without another state we can see with the US’s war on al quada that proper accepted war is not even possible… ie no rules of engagement and no POWs.
So therefore without states there could be no war and what can war be other than organised murder?
(Of course if all states ceased to be the world would not become a utopia without violence and death, but the whole purpose of a state was to make murder and theft in a collective way, legitimate and easier, and more profitable.)

The state has a responsibility to be “humaine” you suggest.
I would think locking up someone… even in relative comfort… with a guarantee they will never leave alive is not morally better than quickly and painlessly ending their lives?

I have also mentioned there is a question of financial and material waste involved in keeping members of society that can no longer be productive for that society.

You can’t exile these people to Australia any more… maybe we should send them out into space…

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-12-02 AT 12:28 PM (GMT)]Eric,

I agree that it’s a frustrating feeling to know that your tax $ will be used for that. However if you think that way , why do you pay taxes for roads that you will never take , build schools since you’re a grown up and furbish hospitals since you’re not ill.

That is state duty. Jails are part of what every state in the world has to provide to the population. What is a cost of a death penalty ? Are the figures made public?
I do respect your point of view but I guess that the money aspect of the death penalty is not the most important.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

I see it in a different light. When the government is authorized to do the death penalty for something as serious as this they are doing a public service. Why should my tax dollars go to house a serial killer?

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Absolutely not. For two reasons:

1 – I think the death penalty is fundamentally wrong. By convicting a criminal to death, the state lowers itself to the same level of the criminal. Same with relatives of victims demanding the death of the criminal who hurt their loved ones – if that’s what you want, then move to Albania or some other place where vendetta is still legal.

2 – The sentence is far too light in comparison to REAL . Sorry to the more blood-thirsty people around here, but being in jail for a few months or years knowing that it is a finite time you spend there, is IMHO much less depressing than knowing you will be behind bars when you’re really, really, really old and finally die.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

“…thoughts on this topic of lets say, 10 different people who lost love ones to incidents similar to what these maniacs caused. “

Or even 10 different people who had to fill their cars with petrol, or buy some groceries in the “hunting ground”.

Having said that in a fair court system such people would never be chosen for jury duty and obviously for good reason.

I personally don’t see how anyone could sit on a jury and listen to how two men carefully planned and executed such a series of crimes could be rehabilitated, or punnished.
From the little evidence I have heard they did it for money and because they were disgruntled with society.
If they spend the next 30-40 years in jail will they come out rich and happy? …I don’t think so.
The death penalty is there… I say use it.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

I don’t see what the big deal is. If you don’t like the law here and live here, then vote. If you don’t like it and don’t live here, too bad. I find the out-pouring of grief for serial killers sickly amusing. I don’t have any respect for that. I would respect however, the thoughts on this topic of lets say, 10 different people who lost love ones to incidents similar to what these maniacs caused.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

The washington sniper? Well i must admit that usa should bring back the death penalty for him/her because he has caused death to how many people was it?

9? 10? who will be next?
:'(

RE: A joke that makes you think… no offence ment

At least they are consistant on this matter… I think the vast majority of Americans want both to die… It is more of an irony than a joke really.

RE: A joke that makes you think… no offence ment

don’t worry i get it

rabie :9

RE: A joke that makes you think… no offence ment

No i was not trying to say that. What i was trying to get accross is how goverments (in this case USA) do things beleving it will benefit them and then shoot them self in the foot. Plus i dont know what r u getting so pissed off about Vortex.. what i said is TRUE after all. Plus it is a Joke, at the end of the day.

RE: A joke that makes you think… no offence ment

>What do Osama Bi Laden and Washington Sniper have in
>common??
>
>1. They both killed civilian Americans
>2. They were both trained by the US, which enabled them to
>do so.
>
>
>Something to think about. 😉

right, only Americans knows how to train pilots and only Americans know how to train a sniper…is that what you’re trying to say. In that case, you’re right, we’re simply the best. Unfortunately there are forces from the dark side….

A joke that makes you think… no offence ment

What do Osama Bi Laden and Washington Sniper have in common??

1. They both killed civilian Americans
2. They were both trained by the US, which enabled them to do so.

Something to think about. 😉

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Please…
This civilised society that does not kill its’ own… I guess it is uncivilised countries that bomb and kill other countries… no wait a minute that is not always true.
It is quite natural for societies… and not just human ones… to sacrifice its own for the protection and/or wellbeing of the rest of the society.
It took all of human history till the early 1800s to get to 1 billion people. From then until the 1930s to double that to get to 2 billion. In the 70 odd years since the 30s we have tripled that to about 6 billion… do you really think it is a good idea to promote all human life as sacred?
I am not suggesting a yearly wholesale slaughter to keep numbers down, nor a war every few weeks, nor any freeforall killing legislation but as long as we are multiplying at the rate we are I really don’t think the DP is that bad.

Perhaps more money should be going to NASA and Durex rather than Boeing and Colt.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

well im not going to budge on this one lads – to me its just morally worng. we’ve had this discussion before and we’re all not shifting.

we could go forevr but im getting a tad bored(i respect that your not shifitng either).

fundametally i think its wrong and that human rights are for everyone. hhuman rights protect minoites from the “tyranny of the majority” – i belive this is parmount

rabie :9

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

I’m with wombat and Kev 35 on this. they have both stated their cases and I’ve nothing to add ,but this question of the killers ‘Human rights’ as quoted by Rabie,I say again they revoke any rights when they commit the crime, society does not owe them anything, and if you imprison them for ten years and let them out in five what is the point of setting the sentence in the first place and what justice is it to the victims and their families.