The Washington Sniper —- Death???

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Wombat,

“As for life imprisonment as against death because it is their human right, my belief is that when you have committed the crimes some of these mongrels have, you forfeit your rights as a human being.”

Couldn’t agree more.

“We will always disagree with each other over this issue, as it is extremely emotive and our life’s experiences will colour our perceptions. When we haven’t been victims of serious crimes personally, or haven’t had access to the background of serious crimes, we can’t always imagine what went throught the minds of the victims or the offenders.”

Exactly. I have not been the victim of a serious crime but I have worked with victims and their families and seen the damage it has done. A woman was raped brutally, I saw her injuries and the devastation in that family. Three years later the perpetrator is released and went on to torment that woman for a couple of years. I saw, but couldn’t begin to understand what that woman went through.

“I just don’t believe that the worst offenders deserve to live. I’m not barbaric and I don’t believe that society is uncivilised when it exercises the death penalty. Some criminals should never have the right to expect they will ever be treated as human beings.”

Excellently put. A man sexually abuses your younger sister over a period of years and she is in such torment she takes her own life. How could you possibly treat that man as anything other than the lowest form of life? Give him five years jail and place him on the sex offenders register, do you really belive that in any way shape or form begins to atone for his crimes?

Regards

kev35

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Rabie.

“1. What penalty should apply, if not death?”

Life, or a timed sentace. i belive that if a judge rules so, prehaps a trikoria of judges, that certain very bad criminals coud be setanced for very very long peroids eg 40 years, etc. now if these people are really mad they’ll be lcoked up indefintley anyway at braodmore under the mental health act.”

What difference is locking them away in comparative luxury going to have? How is it going to help or rehabilitate the perpetrator? How is it helpful to society? For multiple murderers, or those who reoffend while free on license there should be no alternative other than death. If you have a dog and it bites you you might just give it a second chance, if it bites you again the odds are almost certain you will have it destroyed. Now what has that got ot do with anything I hear you say. Humans are supposed to be more cognisant and able to rationalise and internalise their actions. The Moors murderers for instance are examples of people who are of no possible use to society yet we keep them imprisoned and even in the case of Ian brady allow him to have a book published about serial murder.

“2. If life imprisonment is your recommended penalty, why should society be expected to house, feed, clothe, administer medical aid and in many cases, protect prisoners from other violent prisoners, for many years, at massive cost?”

a) its cheaper (see above)
b) its morally right – ie we can’t leave them in a gulag
c) its their human right, and is everyone’s human right”

But what about the rights of the victims? Surely you don’t think they shouldn’t count at all because they are dead? Why do human rights only seem to apply to the perpetrators? That smacks of some kind of sick double standard, when you advocate the rights of the perpetrator above those of the victim. Remember it is society you want to protect. Don’t you think there are people in society who see murderers released after obscenely short sentences who think ‘is that all I’m going to get?’

“a) “two wrongs don’t make a right” – who are we to kill someone.
b) we should lead by example.
c) its worked in the past”

Two wrongs don’t make a right, but you obviously believe they do if you are prepared to send a convicted murderer back out into society to reoffend. And don’t say it hasn’t happened because it has.

“we would be lowering ourselves to their level. we show how strong the scoety they were trying to undermine is by trying and convicteing them on out standards. going out of our way and being unfair to them shows tht we are infact “the land of the free” or whatever”

We show how weak our society is when old people are afraid to leave their homes after dark, street crime continues unabated, 75% of households are the victims of burglary, women are not safe in the streets and parents take their children to and from school out of the fear they may be abducted. Just who are we being fair to?

“lock in up for life, i a very very long time. he would be wasting away unable and impotent to do anything. he would also no become a maytar to fundametalists.”

Have you ever heard of Baader Meinhoff? They carried out further acts of terror to get their colleagues released. Locking up Bin Laden would encourage terrorists to even greater efforts to release their leader. he would be far from impotent, his mere capture and imprisonment would be like a moth to a flame for fundamentalists. A martyr is someone who dies for their cause. He wouldn’t, but thousands of his followers would. If he is killed, they have no-one to impress.

The death penalty may be considered to be an evil, but I believe in today’s society it is becoming ever more a necessary one.

Regards,

kev35

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Hand and Rabie

I previously replied to Hand’s question, but the post has been lost in the ether somewhere,

Re our status with the Death penalty – the last execution in Australia was in 1967 in Victoria, the last state to have the death penalty. It was abolished shortly afterwards. Life imprisonment is now the maximum sentence anywhere in Australia.

Rabie:

Re your responses –

Response 1. Not every serious murderer is deemed mentally incompetent, even though their actions defy the understanding of reasonable people. Some of them are just plain evil, but fully in control of their senses. Therefore, locking them up in places like Broadmoor is not a realistic option.

Response 2. It is only cheaper if you have a legal system like America’s, where defendants can appeal over a very protracted period to a multitude of levels of court on the slightest technicality. Whilst the Westminster system of justice has similarities, the US system has evolved along different paths and is certainly NOT the model for the rest of us to follow.

We don’t have “Gulags”, but maybe we should. The level of accommodation provided in modern prisons in our countries is hardly a punishment for the most serious crimes.

As for life imprisonment as against death because it is their human right, my belief is that when you have committed the crimes some of these mongrels have, you forfeit your rights as a human being.

Response 3. “It’s worked in the past”. True, but it’s also failed in the past. I don’t believe in the death penalty being levied as a deterrent to further crime being committed, but as a penalty appropriate to the crime in question.

I realise every country has its rotten criminals, but let me outline one of our most serious offenders in recent years.

Ivan Milat was convicted about five years ago for a series of murders of ‘backpackers’, mostly British and European, whom he enticed into his vehicle on the highway south west of Sydney. They were probably hitch-hiking, so getting them into his car was no problem. He would then drive into a state forest where he would tie them up and use them for target practice. This went on over a period of a few years, with the tourists just going missing and nobody having any idea of where to start looking.

It was only after a body was accidentally found by a camper, buried under a log, followed by a second body almost immediately after, that police had some idea where to look for other bodies. I think they eventually found 7.

Milat was eventually tracked down and jailed for life. His past was revealed to show that he was really a rotten apple. He has never displayed any remorse and attempts to use our legal system to have his case reviewed, despite absolutely overwhelming evidence against him, including identification by one lucky Brit tourist who escaped from Milat’s vehicle.

I’m sorry guys, but Milat deserved nothing better than a nice piece of rope slung over a beam and a long drop to oblivion.

We will always disagree with each other over this issue, as it is extremely emotive and our life’s experiences will colour our perceptions. When we haven’t been victims of serious crimes personally, or haven’t had access to the background of serious crimes, we can’t always imagine what went throught the minds of the victims or the offenders. I just don’t believe that the worst offenders deserve to live. I’m not barbaric and I don’t believe that society is uncivilised when it exercises the death penalty. Some criminals should never have the right to expect they will ever be treated as human beings.

Regards

Wombat

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

jumping on the band waggon

“1. What penalty should apply, if not death?“

Life, or a timed sentace. i belive that if a judge rules so, prehaps a trikoria of judges, that certain very bad criminals coud be setanced for very very long peroids eg 40 years, etc. now if these people are really mad they’ll be lcoked up indefintley anyway at braodmore under the mental health act.

“2. If life imprisonment is your recommended penalty, why should society be expected to house, feed, clothe, administer medical aid and in many cases, protect prisoners from other violent prisoners, for many years, at massive cost?“

a) its cheaper (see above)
b) its morally right – ie we can’t leave them in a gulag
c) its their human right, and is everyone’s human right

“3. Why is the death penalty condemned on the grounds that this is the 21st century, which means we should all be civilised and not result to barbaric punishment for serious crimes?“

a) “two wrongs don’t make a right” – who are we to kill someone.
b) we should lead by example.
c) its worked in the past

“The severity, level of violence exhibited, and degree of planning and pre-meditation that goes into some serious crimes today, far outweighs the nature and severity of crimes in the past. Today’s worst crimes are totally uncivilised, why deal with them by administering “civilised” punishment?“

we would be lowering ourselves to their level. we show how strong the scoety they were trying to undermine is by trying and convicteing them on out standards. going out of our way and being unfair to them shows tht we are infact “the land of the free” or whatever

“I have asked this question before, with no answer received, so I ask it again – how would those of you who oppose the death penalty, punish Bin Laden if he was captured and it was proven beyond any doubt that he was the planner and instigator of the WTC attacks?“

lock in up for life, i a very very long time. he would be wasting away unable and impotent to do anything. he would also no become a maytar to fundametalists.

No Death Penalty!

rabie :9

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

>Interesting that nothing has been heard from the “no death
>penalty” brigade to my questions in post 21.
>
>I don’t want to argue with Geforce and others, but if they
>oppose the death penalty, how do they respond to my
>questions?
>
>Or don’t they have any answers?
>
>Regards
>
>Wombat

Okey Wombat I’ll answer your questions, as most of the members on this forum know, I oppose the death penalty for some main resaons. I’ll post them in a few houres.

Your post 21:

To those who are opposed to the death penalty, I must ask the following questions:
1. What penalty should apply, if not death?
2. If life imprisonment is your recommended penalty, why should society be expected to house, feed, clothe, administer medical aid and in many cases, protect prisoners from other violent prisoners, for many years, at massive cost?
3. Why is the death penalty condemned on the grounds that this is the 21st century, which means we should all be civilised and not result to barbaric punishment for serious crimes?

The severity, level of violence exhibited, and degree of planning and pre-meditation that goes into some serious crimes today, far outweighs the nature and severity of crimes in the past. Today’s worst crimes are totally uncivilised, why deal with them by administering “civilised” punishment?

I have asked this question before, with no answer received, so I ask it again – how would those of you who oppose the death penalty, punish Bin Laden if he was captured and it was proven beyond any doubt that he was the planner and instigator of the WTC attacks?

Regards

Wombat

My answer to them:
1. What penalty should apply, if not death?
imprsonment, not even for life. 10 – 20 years.

2. If life imprisonment is your recommended penalty, why should society be expected to house, feed, clothe, administer medical aid and in many cases, protect prisoners from other violent prisoners, for many years, at massive cost?
Because it is their duty. By the way their has been studies done in the US which had the outcome that it was even more expensive to go to all the legal prositures and all the other stuff then to lock up that same human for live.

3. Why is the death penalty condemned on the grounds that this is the 21st century, which means we should all be civilised and not result to barbaric punishment for serious crimes?
Not a good argument by it self. I agree with you treir. But you have to realise that we have come a long way here in Europe. From tortire, excution by burning for whichcraft etc. Live in prison for stealing bread, many inocent people dead.

hope this gives you an answer. I’ll put my reasons for opposing here today or tomorrow.

regards,

jw

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Wombat,

I’m against any kind of death penalty. A civlized society CAN’T be as barbarian as those monsters. However , I agree that you rose some good questions about the cost , about the way to use “in jail for life” punishment.

We have already debated about this and I don’t want to argue again.

This is definitely a “no-good-solution” issue.

I believe that we should maintain those guys in jail and make them work to earn a compensation for the victims.

that’s my point of view and I do respect yours ….

BTW what’s the status of death penalty in Australia?

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Have you ever heard of a majority verdict? If there is not a unanimous decision then there should be life inprisonment.
If the evidence is clearly proven that they committed the crime then the death penalty should stand.
Or do you believe in ‘Sorry I didn’t mean to’ as a defence and let them go!
Are you in that case willing to have them live next door to you ?
How safe would your children be with a child killer as a neighbour?

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

> I believe that if there is overwhelming evidence as it
>appeares in the case of the sniper then there is
>justification for the death penalty and also because there
>was multiple deaths.If however the murder is not
>premedetated or there is not 100% certainty then it should
>be commuted to life imprisonment, and life should mean life.
>I don’t agree with this time off for good behaviour rubbish’
>when did they introduce a compensation sceam for the victims
>families and after so many years (if they’ve been good!) do
>they get a bonus of some sort?,no so why should the
>murderer.From the moment the commit the crime they waver any
>’civil right’ and deserve what ever the law throughs at
>them.

if a crime isn’t 100% proven then there can’t be a conviction not live in prison and not death, no conviction. Does the frase innocent until PROVEN quietly mean anything to you. [/b]

regards,

jw

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Interesting that nothing has been heard from the “no death penalty” brigade to my questions in post 21.

I don’t want to argue with Geforce and others, but if they oppose the death penalty, how do they respond to my questions?

Or don’t they have any answers?

Regards

Wombat

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

SOC,

“Regardless, the US Constitution specifically permits the death penalty. If no-one else finds it before I get home this evening I’ll post the relevant passage. Ergo, who cares what you think. We’re allowed to do it. Sniper Dad and his Bullet Boy are going to fry. Bottom line.”

??????? If you don’t care what anyone else thinks why have you entered the debate? If you’re so sure that the death penalty is the way to go you should be secure enough in your beliefs that you don’t have to rely on the ‘who cares what you think. We’re allowed to do it.’ defence.

“What about Adolf Hitler? Would you throw him in jail? Exile him? What?”

I may be wrong, but I believe he died some years ago.

“If you aren’t offering a solution, then sit down and be quiet. You’re entitled to your opinion, and most people here (including myself) will welcome them, but you have to offer something to the debate as well.”

Thank you, it’s kind of you to give me the opportunity. Now, first of all I support the death penalty for certain crimes such as multiple murder, terrorism, proven premeditated murder and certain crimes against children. I don’t think you can have a blanket death penalty for murder. For instance, a man beats his wife half to death regularly over a period of years it is understandable that she might snap and shove a knife in him. Circumstances have to be taken into consideration. There has to be incontravertible proof that the assailant is guilty. The method of execution should be as humane as possible. The taking of the perpetrators life should be enough.

“There’s my two cents. Place your bets as to how many people I just irritated }>”

One?

Regards,

kev35

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-10-02 AT 10:01 PM (GMT)]well, i’m a bit less extreme as you SOC, i do believe in accidental killings and self defense. In the case of accidental, you should still get some kind of sentence, like between 1-10 years depending on circumstances(i know i’ll have a hard time coping with life if i accidentally killed somebody, it’s not the kind of thing where a normal human being can just brush off and says “life goes on”). In case of self defense, it has to be proven without doubt that it was self defense, or else you get put in the same category as a murderer. About insanity pleads, especially momentary insanity, isn’t it obvious that no normal person will kill others for the sake of killing them. That’s just rediculous and is injustice to those who were executed or spend their life in jail also. But, again, death only for those of 100% certainty guilty.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Thats another great point, a life sentence means you die in jail. Period. None of this bargaining and dealing and pleading down and crap. Plea bargaisn can go out the window as well. Time served? No again. We need a solid legal system for it to even begin to work.

As for premeditation-I think murder is murder, and if one murder justifies the death penalty then they all do. I don’t for one instant buy any of this emotional duress, or insanity, or any other BS defense people use to get off. If you kill someone, you forfeit your life. End of story.

I have the feeling we’re going to have a great discussion going in a few hours! 😀

SOC

“Peace through kinetic solutions”

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Vortex, Merlin, interesting discussion you two have going on here.

Europe is more civilized? What, was Hitler born in Detroit? Was Milosevic living in Beverly Hills? Did the US colonists bring slavery to Europe? No to all of those. Personally I don’t think one country is better than the other in most cases, but this is ridiculous. We could attack each countries beliefs all day. The issue is the two sniping idiots here in the US. I say execute them both. We need harsher criminal laws here in America. If I had my way every drug dealer, rapist, child molester (including priests, they get no church protection) and murderer, they’d all get the chair. Gangs would be categorized as organized crime and dealt with violently by the FBI. Drug rehab consists of bread, water, and isolation in a small room for six months. Prison consists of not much different (it is going to actually be punishment, not some break from life where you get free medical and a college degree while watching cable TV).

Regardless, the US Constitution specifically permits the death penalty. If no-one else finds it before I get home this evening I’ll post the relevant passage. Ergo, who cares what you think. We’re allowed to do it. Sniper Dad and his Bullet Boy are going to fry. Bottom line.

Interesting point about Bin Laden-I want to know what people against the death penalty think we should do about him. And what about the PLO leaders? Israel basically uses the death penalty, and they go so far asto say we “believe” or we “think” that the targeted and killed people were behind whatever attack. Before a rougue terrorist nation state goes using F-16s to bomb civillians, they should at least be SURE. What about Adolf Hitler? Would you throw him in jail? Exile him? What?

I also vote for people against the death penalty to tkae in the death row inmates and such. If you aren’t offering a solution, then sit down and be quiet. You’re entitled to your opinion, and most people here (including myself) will welcome them, but you have to offer something to the debate as well.

There’s my two cents. Place your bets as to how many people I just irritated }>

SOC

“Peace through kinetic solutions”

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

I believe that if there is overwhelming evidence as it appeares in the case of the sniper then there is justification for the death penalty and also because there was multiple deaths.If however the murder is not premedetated or there is not 100% certainty then it should be commuted to life imprisonment, and life should mean life. I don’t agree with this time off for good behaviour rubbish’ when did they introduce a compensation sceam for the victims families and after so many years (if they’ve been good!) do they get a bonus of some sort?,no so why should the murderer.From the moment the commit the crime they waver any ‘civil right’ and deserve what ever the law throughs at them.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Vortex

I take your point in post number 20 but I dont think families should suffer either I never said or meant that. I just mean for crimes less vile that dont carry the death sentance that we should perhaps publically shame them as this has seemed to work before. Well perhaps we do this already. Doesnt the media reports in the papers already publically shame people And look at a couple of so called stars recently in the papers in the UK. There are people who think they will never work in showbiz again.

Also in your post 22 I think you may have a few good ideas there.

Merlin

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

here’s a suggestion…instead of death penalties, we ask those who are against it to house them since the jail is overloaded. Obviously to those against it, these are human beings that should be protected, and what’s not more convincing if they live together to demonstrate that. No, obviously you don’t want that and you don’t even want to live in the same community as ANY ex-convicts of serious crimes. Tell me why is that, obviously you just want to feel good for the “morality” but have no part with responsibilities and consequences…

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

To those who are opposed to the death penalty, I must ask the following questions:

1. What penalty should apply, if not death?
2. If life imprisonment is your recommended penalty, why should society be expected to house, feed, clothe, administer medical aid and in many cases, protect prisoners from other violent prisoners, for many years, at massive cost?
3. Why is the death penalty condemned on the grounds that this is the 21st century, which means we should all be civilised and not result to barbaric punishment for serious crimes?

The severity, level of violence exhibited, and degree of planning and pre-meditation that goes into some serious crimes today, far outweighs the nature and severity of crimes in the past. Today’s worst crimes are totally uncivilised, why deal with them by administering “civilised” punishment?

I have asked this question before, with no answer received, so I ask it again – how would those of you who oppose the death penalty, punish Bin Laden if he was captured and it was proven beyond any doubt that he was the planner and instigator of the WTC attacks?

Regards

Wombat

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Merlin, i was merely answering with respect to the snipers…that’s all. Take note that many part of the world still uses “shame” even after punishing (ie, shaming the family members of those that were executed)…i guess Geforce thinks Europeans are more morally right and advanced (21st century i suppose)than the rest of the world. Back to the same thing, if American it’s arrogance, if European the rest of the world must follow because it’s morally correct and civilized. please…In this case, i don’t beleve in shaming, and i don’t believe in punishing relatives, i don’t believe in death 99% of the time, but what i do firmly believe is there are those without antidote and remorse and ultimately humanity.

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-10-02 AT 06:57 PM (GMT)]here is the link if anyone is interested,

http://www.keymags.co.uk/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=3…

regards,

jw

RE: The Washington Sniper —- Death???

Vortex,

years ago in Britain if you were caught stealing you would have been put in the stock and had rotten food and stones throwen at you. If you had done something less shameful then you would be chained up outside your local church so everyone could come and look at you and talk about you. If you were a herbalist or something of that nature then they called you a witch and then proceeded to torture you, Hang , Burn or drown you. If they tried to drown you and you survived somehow they would burn you as a witch anyway. Apart from what they did to people for being a so called witch I think the other ways of publically shaming people is quite a good idea. And I was never talking about what is in your constitution just expressing my views.

Merlin