U.S.A Second Amendment re-think

Rick, those Officers died in the course of their duties, don’t try and demean them just to score a point.

I’ve done this before and I’ll try it once again. I’ll give you some figures and then at the end I’ll ask a couple of very simple questions. The figures have come from the US CDC and the UK’s ONS. The UK population is just over 56 million whilst that of the US is just under 312 million. I think we can agree the US population is roughly five times that of the UK. Maybe, as developed Countries, we might expect the crime rates to be broadly similar?

Fot the year 2010/200, the US had 16,799 recorded cases of murder whereas the UK had 648 cases. That gives the US a murder rate which is a staggering 26 times that of the UK’s.

Of those 16,799 murders committed in the US, some 11,493 died from gunshot wounds. In the UK 60 of those murdered died from gunshot wounds. This reveals that just under 68.5% of all US murders for that year were carried out by people using firearms. In the UK the figure is just over 9.25%

Now for the questions.

Why do you think there is such a huge discrepancy in the figures?

Do you think that the preponderance of firearm ownership in the US is contributory to these statistics?

Is there any empirical evidence to suggest that the ownership of firearms by private citizens makes any contribution to the reduction (if any) in gun crime?

Do you accept that the US is a far more violent society than that of the UK? (For all our problems and God knows we have enough.)

Do you think it possible that the reason for the much lower figures for the UK is the simple fact that gun control actually works?

Regards,

kev35

Ah, David – that’s the point surely. Having a discussion amongst ourselves, notwithstanding the Americans among our membership, is different from suggesting to Americans what they should be doing. I agree with Moggy, it is not our place to do that.

Charlie – I wasn’t aware that the US authorities were using the FlyPast forum as a means of deciding gun control policy! The whole idea of the forum is so that subjects can be discussed between members! If British people have an opinion on what is happening in America it’s just as valid a discussion subject as American’s discussing gun control in Mexico .

Rick.

So far in 2012, 123 US Police Officers have died in the course of duty. Of those one died as a result of an assault, eleven died after being deliberately struck by a vehicle, five died of stab wounds and forty seven died of gunshot wounds inflicted on them by someone else. It seems like those people died doing their jobs. Are their lives as worthless and easily dismissed as ‘those mission statements’?

Regards,

kev35

That has nothing to do with their mission statements & what the SCOTUS actually said. The bottom line is that legally they are under no obligation to do a damn thing to protect anyone… which is why we have various LEO’s tell people “I suggest you get a gun & learn how to use it”

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. More kids are killed in the US by child abuse than gunfire, I don’t see anyone harping on about child abuse.
The mass killing get the press the same way airliner crashes do. Still the safest way to travel though… child abuse continues & not a damn thing is done about it.

As for Rick stating what if his gun has been sent away for repair, I cant see his problem, as by his own admission, he has left his premises open, and nothing has been stolen…
Jim.
Lincoln .7

That was before my neighbours son was released from the pokey, this is now:
http://www.theavtimes.com/2012/12/19/drug-house-raided-across-from-elementary-school/

I moved 6 months ago.

Political/diplomatic suggestions, proposals, ideas are exchanged between leaders and governments on a daily basis but that is rather different from the British “man-in-the-street” advising the US authorities how they should change policies and laws..

As Moggy so rightly wrote in #2:

“Not really our place to suggest to the Americans what they should do.

I can’t see any panacea.”

So why did Reagan tell the then Prime Minister Mrs Thatcher that we shouldn’t invade the Falklands, as it may upset the USAs links with Russia, Isn’t that them telling US what to do?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

But as Kev stated, Every Journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Which poses the question, who has the B***s to make that first step?.

Jim.

Lincoln .7

As Moggy so rightly wrote in #2:

“Not really our place to suggest to the Americans what they should do.

I can’t see any panacea.”

Moggy, I don’t suppose you know just how many Americans are members of this Forum do you?.
Jim.

No. I can access IP addresses but that isn’t a foolproof guide by any means.

Lincoln .7

& those mission statements are absolutely worthless. They can say what they want but when push comes to shove & someone asks “where the hell were you?” They say “well actually.. we’re under no obligation to protect anyone”. They trot out that excuse every time someone has the audacity to ask WTF they were doing when someone became a victim of crime. It’s been used thousands of times in the law courts.

Rick.

So far in 2012, 123 US Police Officers have died in the course of duty. Of those one died as a result of an assault, eleven died after being deliberately struck by a vehicle, five died of stab wounds and forty seven died of gunshot wounds inflicted on them by someone else. It seems like those people died doing their jobs. Are their lives as worthless and easily dismissed as ‘those mission statements’?

I think Moggy is right. The thread has become pointless. It would take decades to establish any form of effective gun control in the US. And that’s not going to happen while the Second Amendment remains in place. So every now and again there will be another mass shooting with all the attendant grief, soul searching and hand wringing which will come to naught because Billy Bob’s right to own an M4 Carbine is enshrined in law. Until the same rights are offered to the (potential) victims things will remain the same.

One last note on keeping firearms for protection of one’s life and property. It didn’t really work for the Mother of Adam Lanza did it? Her weapons turned on her and then used in the very school in which she worked. She may have been a ‘prepper’ but she wasn’t very well prepared for this was she?

Solving this problem is not going to be easy and will take a long time. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying, after all, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Regards,

kev35

Moggy, I don’t know about Draconian, at least “WE” didn’t just sit back and take no action.
I.M.H.O. it was long overdue.

But I do agree that there is little the Americans can do regarding their situation.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Look at UK gun law which has gone from unrestricted to draconian in about a century, accelerating courtesy of Hungerford and Dunblane. It takes that long.

Please play nice and keep it civil.

Moggy

Pertinent point. Two extraordinary mindless acts of violence perpetrated by licensed users overturn decades of responsible ownership and usage. Kneejerk reaction is never rational.

Of course we will.:)

I have just had the Post come through the door, and there was a Christmas Card from a friend in Burbank, C,A there are 3 Postage stamps on the envelope, they state, 1)Equality forever. 2). Liberty Forever..3). Freedom Forever.

All displaying the stars and stripes flag!!.

It seems they have the right words, but they mean nothing.
What will their next issue say on their stamps?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

*sighs*

I have to agree with the gun fanbois here, in that no single piece of legislation will change the horrible situation our cousins find themselves in today.

US society is only a couple of hundred years old and hasn’t had the time necessary to mature.

Look at UK gun law which has gone from unrestricted to draconian in about a century, accelerating courtesy of Hungerford and Dunblane. It takes that long.

Despite ZX assertion that he’d be too frightened to live here I know where I feel safest. I enjoyed my time in the firearms industry, but as with most things once it becomes work, any interest in pursuing it as a hobby soon disappears.

In my moderator role I have to keep reading this thread, but this is my last contribution. Nothing of any value is likely to emerge now.

Please play nice and keep it civil.

Moggy

Legislation? I have no idea but how about compromise?

Each individual is allowed to own and keep one handgun and a small quantity of ammunition in their home for personal protection, thereby continuing the Right granted by the Second Amendment, providing the individual concerned passes the current criteria for ownership of a firearm.

Other firearms can be owned and used but have to be secured at a registered and licensed facility (perhaps a gun club? You work out the details). Firearms such as hunting rifles etc., can only be removed from the premises during hunting season and all hunting should be licensed.

Not 23,000 laws, just two, but I bet Rick and Chuck would think even those two simple rules to be too stringent, too restricting and an abuse of their rights.

And that is why things will never change.

Regards,

kev35

Having read what Rick has stated, I find myself agreeing with both of you and certain points. The Police not wanting to know?, when I joined I had to swear an oath, part of which was “To protect life and property”, this worked O.K. all those years ago, but should your house get burgled these days, all you get from them is a Crime number, you don’t get a visit even.
I know roughly where Rick lives, and his gun club may well be possibly in L.A.
In his case, and this I agree with you on, and which I also mentioned many threads ago, is for weapons not being used, to be kept at the gun club, 70 miles to get your gun, is not far in the States, or, why don’t the local Police, which would no doubt be nearer keep a storage facility at their premises, so one could deposit the gun not in use, but draw it out as and when needed?.
As for Rick stating what if his gun has been sent away for repair, I cant see his problem, as by his own admission, he has left his premises open, and nothing has been stolen:confused:.Compromise, I beleive your right on that, if you take into consideration what I have stated, a compromise could, over time possibly be feasable.
I think with common sense, and a bit of give and take with the NRA and Congress, there may just be a slim chance it would work. Personaly, I would like to think it would.
I don’t wish to see any more photos of 6yr old children who died , enough is enough.
But as usual, that is just my opinion.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Reading these night-time exchanges just shows how big the gulf is in our comprehension of the situation in the Us and how irrelevant our ideas for changing the system are.

And how true one of the comments is – “you cannot legislate against insanity”. That is as true there as here and anywhere else for that matter.

ok nuuumannn, what is your suggestion for our 23,001st gun law that will make all the difference?

A place to start is to decrese the exposure to firearms that people have in the USA; I was mildly alarmed to see that Wal Mart sold rifles and hand guns over the counter. I saw a couple picking up the boxes they were in and examining them like they were different types of detergent. Over time, with children not being subject to constant reminders of America’s proud heritage, then there might be more alarm by folk toward the casual appropriation of guns.

My point was that simply “controlling” an activity does not necessarily make it safe.

That’s no excuse not to, though. Not in this case. Gun control is what’s needed over there. It’s simple maths (or ‘math’). The easy it is to get guns = the more likely they will fall into the hands of idiots. The harder it is = the less likely the idiots get them. These things take time, but because tragedies like this happen in other countries or because it is so easy to get hold of firearms is no reason not to control their proliferation, availability and registration, otherwise you are just handing a victory over to the f-wits and the rate that this sort of thing takes place will not decrease over time.

The Mission Statement of the LAPD as taken from their own website…..

The Mission Statement of the NYPD…..

Mission Statement of the Oregon PD…..

Maybe no obligation, but there’s three agencies (the only three I looked at) whose mission statements include the words and/or phrases safeguard, protect and preserve peace.

Regards,

kev35

& those mission statements are absolutely worthless. They can say what they want but when push comes to shove & someone asks “where the hell were you?” They say “well actually.. we’re under no obligation to protect anyone”. They trot out that excuse every time someone has the audacity to ask WTF they were doing when someone became a victim of crime. It’s been used thousands of times in the law courts.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-police-have-no-obligation-to-protect-you-yes-really/

& here’s the legal wording:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/04-278

And you will be right in pointing out that no law enforcement officers prevented the killings in Newtown, just as I will point out that no upstanding, gun owning citizen stepped in either.
Regards,
kev35

That’s because schools are “gun free zones” & upstanding, gun owning citizens don’t break the law. That would be *illegal* 😉