U.S.A Second Amendment re-think

I don’t worry about that at all. Owned my own home for 16 years, never did get around to fixing the broken or missing latches on the windows. Went out one day & accidently left the garage door wide open (facing the street), came home about 5 hours later & nothing was missing from the garage, there were close to $50,000 in tools sitting just where I’d left them.
I also don’t have to worry about my motorcycle being stolen (25% of all theft in the UK) & it’s not at all unusual to see them parked up with the key in the ignition.

Of course you don’t worry about such things, you have your mind on other things…..

Incidently, if someone comes through my door they’re getting the business end of the Mossberg 590 first, not the pistol… & the mossberg is loaded with a mix of 1oz deer slugs, #00 buckshot # #7 birdshot. At least the coroner won’t be bored during the autopsy

Regards,

kev35

The SCOTUS (at least I think that’s who said it) has said that the police agencies are under no obligation to protect the populace… which is a bit inconvenient.

The Mission Statement of the LAPD as taken from their own website…..

It is the mission of the Los Angeles Police Department to safeguard the lives and property of the people we serve, to reduce the incidence and fear of crime, and to enhance public safety while working with the diverse communities to improve their quality of life. Our mandate is to do so with honor and integrity, while at all times conducting ourselves with the highest ethical standards to maintain public confidence.

The Mission Statement of the NYPD…..

The MISSION of the New York City Police Department is to enhance the quality of life in our City by working in partnership with the community and in accordance with constitutional rights to enforce the laws, preserve the peace, reduce fear, and provide for a safe environment.

Mission Statement of the Oregon PD…..

Our mission is to maintain peace and public order by providing high quality police services that are responsive to the needs of the community, We protect life and property by apprehending those who commit criminal acts, by developing partnerships to prevent, reduce, or eliminate neighborhood problems, and by providing police services that are fair, professional, and respectful of the dignity of all individuals.

Maybe no obligation, but there’s three agencies (the only three I looked at) whose mission statements include the words and/or phrases safeguard, protect and preserve peace.

And you will be right in pointing out that no law enforcement officers prevented the killings in Newtown, just as I will point out that no upstanding, gun owning citizen stepped in either.

Regards,

kev35

Rick.

I think you have shown in your last post exactly why this cycle of killings will continue. It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. American citizens legally own firearms because….

a) It is a Right (Second Amendment.)

b) You are afraid of crimes being committed against your person or property.

Regards,

kev35

It’s a lot simpler than that:
This cycle of killing will continue because you can’t legislate insanity.

One other small detail:
The SCOTUS (at least I think that’s who said it) has said that the police agencies are under no obligation to protect the populace… which is a bit inconvenient.

Here in the UK that is probably not our greatest fear when we think of crime. We probably worry more about being burgled while we are out, or having our car stolen or maybe being attacked in the street.

I don’t worry about that at all. Owned my own home for 16 years, never did get around to fixing the broken or missing latches on the windows. Went out one day & accidently left the garage door wide open (facing the street), came home about 5 hours later & nothing was missing from the garage, there were close to $50,000 in tools sitting just where I’d left them.
I also don’t have to worry about my motorcycle being stolen (25% of all theft in the UK) & it’s not at all unusual to see them parked up with the key in the ignition.

Rick.

I think you have shown in your last post exactly why this cycle of killings will continue. It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. American citizens legally own firearms because….

a) It is a Right (Second Amendment.)

b) You are afraid of crimes being committed against your person or property.

As a nascent State there was little in the way of law enforcement so the Right to bear arms made sense, it was self protection. However, as law enforcement became more organised, there was no attempt to control the ownership of firearms due to the Second Amendment. Home owners had firearms to protect themselves and their property. Criminals then chose to arm themselves with more powerful firearms and so the cycle of escalation continued. An arms race by any other name. The good guys weapon has to be more powerful, more effective and more accurate than that of the bad guy who then needs to respond in kind and so it all spirals out of control.

Here in the UK that is probably not our greatest fear when we think of crime. We probably worry more about being burgled while we are out, or having our car stolen or maybe being attacked in the street. But largely, the threat of a firearm being used against us is infinitesimally small compared to the perception of the average citizen in America. And that is simply because of the control of firearms. We, as a rule, have never felt so threatened by firearms that we feel the need or deserve the ‘Right’ to respond in kind.

The sad thing is that gun ownership in the US is now so out of control that it probably is too late for any meaningful form of gun control to have an effect on the situation. For all the flippancy Rick, I am sure you are moved by the deaths of the children and staff at Newtown. But I am equally share that no matter how many of these tragedies there are, that the inalienable right to bear arms will always outweigh the rights of the victims of attacks such as the one at Newtown. Perversely, I suspect that such events only serve to reinforce the American perception that the Second Amendment is right and should be upheld for ever more.

I don’t know the answers, I suspect none of us ever will. It’s just sad that a Nation which is extremely powerful outside its borders is so ineffectual at dealing with gun crime within its borders that serious consideration is given to the arming of teachers while parents have the option of buying a ‘Hello Kitty’ bulletproof knapsack for their six year old.

Regards,

kev35

Other firearms can be owned and used but have to be secured at a registered and licensed facility (perhaps a gun club? You work out the details). Firearms such as hunting rifles etc., can only be removed from the premises during hunting season and all hunting should be licensed.

*Hunting season* for Coyotes is year round…..
& we already license hunters… & it’s not just one license, it’s different depending on if you are hunting wild pigs or fish… or deer.. or ducks.. or turkey.. or.. well, you get the idea.

What happens if the nearest *gun club* is 70 miles away & there are Coyotes attacking your chickens/goats etc.. or a bear is eating one of your horses/cows/neighbours?

As for the one gun at home idea.. what happens if you send it off for repair? or have it in pieces all over the coffee table for cleaning?

& what is a “small quantity of ammo”? 10 rounds? 100? What if 4 people do a home invasion & you use up 8 of your 10 rounds on the first guy, 2 on the second & then the 3rd bloke comes through the door?

Incidently, if someone comes through my door they’re getting the business end of the Mossberg 590 first, not the pistol… & the mossberg is loaded with a mix of 1oz deer slugs, #00 buckshot # #7 birdshot. At least the coroner won’t be bored during the autopsy 🙂

Rick, So, in my mind, am I right in your opinion, that the ownership, and obtaining weapons should be fine tuned, I mean, 23.000 different Laws to be observed is rather unrealistic for anyone to remember, is it a Law, that one has to know many, if not all these Laws?, Is there a “Shooters guide to the Law” that is issued for the particular State one lives in, or just the so many of the main Law as stated by Congress, if by Congress, how many of the Laws do you HAVE to abide by, in whichever State you live in?.
If you are travelling from one State to another, say, on Vacation, do you check which Laws are different to the State you are leaving to the one you are travelling to?.
I find it hard to comprehend so many Laws regulating the ownership of weapons.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I’ve found the least knowledgeable about the gun laws are those entrusted with enforcing them. The number of people arrested for breaking some gun law which is then thrown out of court is ridiculous. It’s not even the more obscure of the laws they fall foul of.
Living in Califailure I don’t have to worry too much about breaking gun laws when I travel to other States as the ones we have here are some of the most stupid laws on the planet.
When I had an FFL I was sent a copy of relevant ATF rules & regs etc, it’s the size of a phone book.

Had to drop by an office last week & they had a metal detector at the door. I walked right through it without setting it off while I had a stainless steel pocket knife on me. My S&W is stainless & plastic so they wouldn’t have set it off either.

Perhaps Kev, that either Rick, or Chuck would like to put forward their views on your suggestion.
I will reserve my comments regarding yours, until we hear from either of the two members.

Any Forum members out there wish to comment on their own particular Countries Gun Laws?.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Legislation? I have no idea but how about compromise?

Each individual is allowed to own and keep one handgun and a small quantity of ammunition in their home for personal protection, thereby continuing the Right granted by the Second Amendment, providing the individual concerned passes the current criteria for ownership of a firearm.

Other firearms can be owned and used but have to be secured at a registered and licensed facility (perhaps a gun club? You work out the details). Firearms such as hunting rifles etc., can only be removed from the premises during hunting season and all hunting should be licensed.

Not 23,000 laws, just two, but I bet Rick and Chuck would think even those two simple rules to be too stringent, too restricting and an abuse of their rights.

And that is why things will never change.

Regards,

kev35

That’s the national total, christ knows what the majority of them are about. Most people, even rabid anti’s are hard pressed to come up with more than 10 or 12.
Have a go at coming up with more than a dozen gun laws…

Rick, So, in my mind, am I right in your opinion, that the ownership, and obtaining weapons should be fine tuned, I mean, 23.000 different Laws to be observed is rather unrealistic for anyone to remember, is it a Law, that one has to know many, if not all these Laws?, Is there a “Shooters guide to the Law” that is issued for the particular State one lives in, or just the so many of the main Law as stated by Congress, if by Congress, how many of the Laws do you HAVE to abide by, in whichever State you live in?.
If you are travelling from one State to another, say, on Vacation, do you check which Laws are different to the State you are leaving to the one you are travelling to?.
I find it hard to comprehend so many Laws regulating the ownership of weapons.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
~120 specifically-named firearms
~Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
~Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds

Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
~Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
~Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
~Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans

Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.

Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
~Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
~Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
~Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
~Background check of owner and any transferee;
~Type and serial number of the firearm;
~Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
~Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
~Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

Doesn’t seem to affect me in any way at all (since that tragic boating accident with my guns) but MrCreosote seems to think that my guns are part of the problem…

Shall I take your ducking of this question too as tacit acceptance?

Sure, go right ahead if it gives you warm fuzzies. :rolleyes: It won’t make ANY difference in the grand scheme of things anyway.

Rick. 23.000 Gun Laws?. are these in the State YOU live in, or all the States,combined, many of which have their own gun laws, but still have to abide by the main parameters as laid down by Congress?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

That’s the national total, christ knows what the majority of them are about. Most people, even rabid anti’s are hard pressed to come up with more than 10 or 12.
Have a go at coming up with more than a dozen gun laws…

I’d suggest your guns are part of the problem because there is always the potential for them to fall into the wrong hands,

Just parking your car someplace, including your own garage leaves it wide open to the potential for it to be used by a drunk driver…? Better come up with more traffic laws.

Business as usual then, eh?

Have you even bothered to read anything that I have written? I ADMITTED there is a problem. It is a societal problem and it needs to be addressed NOW. But you do not address a morality and ethical problem, in a Nation where liberty is supposed to be upheld, but controlling peoples lives.

If that is your idea of a Utopian society, then so be it. But I will be dammed if I don’t do my best to educate people over here and trying to stop it from happening.

Don’t worry, our nannycrats are hard at work:

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons

Summary:

Summary of 2013 legislation

Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:

Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
~120 specifically-named firearms
~Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
~Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds

Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
~Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
~Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
~Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans

Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.

Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
~Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
~Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
~Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
~Background check of owner and any transferee;
~Type and serial number of the firearm;
~Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
~Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
~Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

This, coming from a woman who has a near impossible to obtain concealed carry permit in California. Do as I say, not as I do again. I do not and will not accept this from our “democratically elected leaders”.

Also, another great tidbit from a Statist:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/nadler-state-ought-have-monopoly-legitimate-violence

Summary: “But let me say, yes,” Nadler added. “One of the definitions of a nation state is that the state has a monopoly on legitimate violence. And the state ought to have a monopoly on legitimate violence.”

It’s only a conspiracy if you don’t chose to see what is right in front of your eyes.

Business as usual then, eh? But I agree; little point in debating with someone who continually ducks all my questions.

You do NOT base the rule of law on an emotional response. If someone can not understand that basic fact, there is no point in debating with them.

How many people die a year from car accidents, heart disease, etc etc. 3000 people died on 9/11, so to “protect” us, we now have a myriad of laws that do nothing except destroy civil liberties, to the point that if you, as a US citizen, are deemed to be aiding or have any dealings with a “terrorist”, you may be sent to jail, indefinitely, no judge, no jury. I advocated for the “Patriot Act”, based on an emotional “rah rah” response, I thought we needed to keep ourselves safe. I found out I was wrong.

And most of us that own firearms do not consider them toys, but rather as tools. But hey, let’s keep arguing over an emotionally terrible issue, rather than deal with the facts.

I’d suggest your guns are part of the problem because there is always the potential for them to fall into the wrong hands, as happened in Connecticut. Yes, it may seem very remote, absurd even, to you, but can you deny it happens? What if you yourself have some kind of mental breakdown in the future; or are you saying that only happens to other people? As I’ve already said, if it happens just once, surely it suggests something needs to be done, unless you don’t consider mass murder of 6 year old children a partuicularly important issue in the overall scheme of things? Please answer. And yes, I have a suggestion for a new law; catch up with the rest of the civilised world where gun crime is way lower and make it so that you have to have a damn good reason to even have a gun in the first place, instead of a damn good reason not to have one. All this stuff about cars and swimming pools (:confused:) is completely irellevant and just ducking the simple, inescapable fact that more gun ownership inevitably results in more gun misuse and more carnage. Do you deny that? Or shall we just go on pretending everything is fine and wait for the next school shooting?

Shall I take your ducking of this question too as tacit acceptance?

As I’ve said here before (and no one has yet contradicted me) it seems America as a whole accepts these continual massacres as a price worth paying for keeping their lethal toys.

& who makes the decision about who gets to keep guns they already have & who doesn’t? My guns are secure, there’s no nutters/felons in the house, the house is secure, I abide by the TWENTY THREE THOUSAND gun laws we already have on the books. When I was actively collecting I had a C&R FFL..

Rick. 23.000 Gun Laws?. are these in the State YOU live in, or all the States,combined, many of which have their own gun laws, but still have to abide by the main parameters as laid down by Congress?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Why are you waiting for someone to refute it? Will it help you sleep at night? If only 0.00034% of cars on the roads broke the speed limits the cops wouldn’t even bother writing tickets.

I’m also still waiting, I’m waiting for you to tell me how MY guns are part of the problem?

& while you at it, explain why 23,000 gun laws *don’t work*.. but surely one more would make all the difference? & you can even propose the 23,001st gun law yourself… remember, it can’t be a duplicate of the other 23,000.

btw, *gun buy backs* are one of the dumbest ideas anyone dreamed up, they give away $200 gift cards for guns that cost $70 new. I saw barrels full of those $70 guns on tv last night. Every time they announce a buy back everyone stocks up on cheap guns, turns them in & makes a fortune. Total waste of tax payers money..