What’s Wrong With the Roads?

I use Michelin Alpin winter tyres. They are fantastic unlike the Michelin Economy Tyres (OE) I have in the summer.

Those have little grip, wear rapidly, are noisy and are prone to punctures.

I am due to replace both sets at the end of each season. My new set of summer tyres in March will be Bridgestones, I think – a superb brand.

You believe what you want to – you seem to mock the use of winter tyres as some useless placebo for the easily led and gullible driver…

I don’t mock. If anyone is happier using winter tyres in the less-than-remote parts of the UK they will come to no harm. There is not even a financial penalty involved.

I tend to believe what I have experienced first hand

But do remember I also speak from experience having switched to winter tyres three or four years back and having seen that they offer some small advantages and some small disadvantages to my motoring here in East Anglia. If I lived in rural Scotland, I would probably invest again.

And the fact that my day job is involved in motor industry marketing does tend to make me more than a little cynical.

And likewise, if you want to wear your best rubber on the trailing wheels I am sure you’ll come to no harm either.

Moggy

I’d also point out that the video is coming up to ten years old and in that time ESP – active safety – has spread a lot lower down the model ranges.

Wow, how easy it is to massage facts – the registration of the Ford C-Max she was using is AD07 KLU – the car, and ergo the video, is only just coming up to 7 years old. Bit different to ten years old!

You believe what you want to – you seem to mock the use of winter tyres as some useless placebo for the easily led and gullible driver…

I tend to believe what I have experienced first hand and unless I can be convinced otherwise I’ll err on the side of caution regarding new tyres to the rear.

Hmmm, actually I don’t have to err, as I rotate my tyres every six months or so, wear tends to be pretty even all round so all four will be due for replacement together.

Now I need to go and dust off the winter rubber and think about getting Parker to swap them over….

It’s certainly more than mine!!:eek:

I was being slightly cynical with #10!

It’s well over 10 years ago since I was last in a tyre factory (IIRC – Pirelli, Burton on Trent to interview a mixing room manager about their new Silane weighing / handling systems) and my specific knowledge on the sector isn’t quite what it once was! 😉

Some – as mentioned in #10.

The batches of compound produced for motor sport are much smaller than those produced for the ‘mass-market’, but some aspects of the ‘chemistry’ of the compounding process do have commercial applications.

Thanks, TO.You seemed to be asking as well as answering in #10, so I was not sure if more information was available. If the aim is solely to reduce mpg rather than improve other factors, like safety, for example, then perhaps not.

The fact is the ‘whole’ tyre industry seems to recommend that the new tyres are put on the back. Now unless you can produce some conspiracy theory as to why they are all doing this, I’d suggest that they may be better placed to make such recommendations than the Fast & Furious Fans who think they can control cars in drifts and understand the wonders of under/oversteer…

No conspiracy theory. It is good advice for the average driver; it is very good advice for the bad driver.

The tyre-industry, at least the part of the tyre-industry interested in selling more tyres, will tell us lots of things that may not only be about safety: better to change all four tyres at once, safer to replace a tyre than risk a repair to a puncture…

…all these things may be true but I still prefer to have my good tyres on the front.

And…..I hate everything to do with ‘Fast and Furious’.

If the tyre industry, having spent billions on tyre development, can say it is safer to put the new rubber on the back for 99.999% of car drivers where is your evidence to actually prove them wrong? Care to produce a video to show the error in their advice?

My view on fitting the good tyres on the front has nothing to do with handling really,although new tyres do ‘sharpen up the steering’ – for me it is a safety issue…a new tyre will be more punture resistant and less likely to suffer structural failure.If you are going to have tyre trouble – better to have it on yer rear tyres LOL

I thought you’d find VBH a little more palatable than say Quentin Wilson or Captain Slow.

How well you know me.

I’ll offer a number of suggestions, but the key will always go back to

100% of the traction, 100% of the steering and about 85-90% of the braking effort

1) Understeer has the benefits that the instinctive reaction of coming off the accelerator is actually quite helpful. In oversteer it’s the exact opposite
2) With an understeering accident you hit the wall / tree / lamp post / other vehicle head on, whence all your passive safety aids are set up to assist rather than sideways-on where you are more vulnerable

You have to cater to the lowest common denominator, which is why we engineer so much understeer these days, and the tyre manufacturers are doing just that here

I’d also point out that the video is coming up to ten years old and in that time ESP – active safety – has spread a lot lower down the model ranges. If VB-H repeated that video today without switching off the aids there would be no drama in either case. It is well outdated.

So, I take you back to

100% of the traction, 100% of the steering and about 85-90% of the braking effort

Nothing at all to do with Fast & Furious

Moggy

A question for you knowledgeable chaps! Has there been any spin off from the tyre technology applied to F1 or is none of that development applicable to standard road tyres?

Some – as mentioned in #10.

The batches of compound produced for motor sport are much smaller than those produced for the ‘mass-market’, but some aspects of the ‘chemistry’ of the compounding process do have commercial applications.

I know it was an e-tyres video, but the I think the gist of the test was the same as they did on the Fifth Gear programme – I thought you’d find VBH a little more palatable than say Quentin Wilson or Captain Slow.
The fact is the ‘whole’ tyre industry seems to recommend that the new tyres are put on the back. Now unless you can produce some conspiracy theory as to why they are all doing this, I’d suggest that they may be better placed to make such recommendations than the Fast & Furious Fans who think they can control cars in drifts and understand the wonders of under/oversteer…

Sure, modern cars have evolved to the stage where the driver is somewhat removed from the ‘mechanics’ of driving, but I think you’ll find that the average driver/car owner just wants to be able to go from A-B as safely as possible with minimal risk to their precious children. This is partly why the chelsea tractor has become as popular as it has – the false belief that you are safer in a big 4×4. How many women drivers understand the basics of centres of gravity and how the bigger the vehicle the higher up it can be?
If the tyre industry, having spent billions on tyre development, can say it is safer to put the new rubber on the back for 99.999% of car drivers where is your evidence to actually prove them wrong? Care to produce a video to show the error in their advice?

A question for you knowledgeable chaps! Has there been any spin off from the tyre technology applied to F1 or is none of that development applicable to standard road tyres?

http://www.etyres.co.uk/flashmovies/new-tyres-rear-etyres.htm

Pretty good advice…..for really bad drivers; we could all make the car do that.

I’m sure Vicki could get round there quicker with the good rubber on the front if she wanted to! 🙂

How many of today’s motorists even know what ‘opposite lock’ is?

I don’t think there would be any point in them knowing! Modern cars corner very, very, well but when they go, they go; you don’t feel it coming and you need reactions faster than lightning to catch one.

I agree about the tyres; I always want the good tyres on the front but it does usually mean rotating them half-way through their life. How many motorists bother with that?

Yes, I have seen that before.

What is the scrumptious VB-H doing peddling such nonsense?

Not 5th Gear, but a tyre-industry video.

Note how she instantly corrects the ‘aquaplaning’ understeer on the car with the new tyres at the back (driving skill), but on the new tyres at the front experiment instictively starts to apply opposite lock and then remembers what she is supposed to be doing and takes off the correction (Best seen on the external shot)

Moggy

How many of today’s motorists even know what ‘opposite lock’ is?

Moggy

It’s in the opposite door….

Think Fifth Gear did a report a few years ago about the habit of putting the new tyres on the back wheels…

http://www.etyres.co.uk/flashmovies/new-tyres-rear-etyres.htm

In the days of tail happy, RWD cars as the general rule I would agree that it wasn’t a bad strategy.

But these days now the typical box is FWD and understeering like mad as it reaches the limit it seem to me lunacy not to have your best tyres on the wheels that look after 100% of the traction, 100% of the steering and about 85-90% of the braking effort.

How many of today’s motorists even know what ‘opposite lock’ is?

Moggy

I think the theory was that under severe braking, or in conditions of low grip, putting the good rubber on the rear wheels would mean there was less chance of the rear-end breaking-away and the vehicle spinning…

…of course the real reason for the back-end breaking-away is usually the change in weight distribution, and hence grip, under severe breaking; although in conditions of low grip and cornering I suppose there may be an advantage to have the good rubber on the rear.

The braking issue is irrelevant on any car fitted with ABS.

Good to see the fitters have stopped trying to persuade me the new tyres should be fitted on the rear axle (fwd)
Moggy

Yes that is another fairly modern tyre ‘fashion’ Moggy,I always end up arguing that one as well…what a dumb idea to put the new tyres on the the back ‘axle’ of a FWD car LOL

Very similar here. We bought a new car for Mrs Moggy and it came on three Nakajima Ditchfinders and one Contisport. What a clown the previous company owner must have been.

I fitted two Dunlop Sport BluResponse and they are exceptionally good.

The labelling shows them as A for wet grip, B for economy and 68db on noise. All I can say is that they have made a terrific difference to the feel of the car.

The second two will be added after Christmas.

Good to see the fitters have stopped trying to persuade me the new tyres should be fitted on the rear axle (fwd)

Moggy