Who Was the Greatest Ace?

Thanks One0nine – I got my info from James Goodson’s Tumult in the Clouds, and he wasn’t sure of the exact circumstances of Hofer’s loss.

I really can’t remember where I had read about this as well……wasn’t in a US mag at any rate….. :confused:

Daft really, as a simple check reveal’s Hofer was KIA on July 2nd 1944, and Hartmann only encountered USAAF P-51’s on June 23rd and June 25th 1944.

Thanks One0nine – I got my info from James Goodson’s Tumult in the Clouds, and he wasn’t sure of the exact circumstances of Hofer’s loss.

I’ll keep an eye out for the book!

JC

rall did’t lose a wingman in combat?
the last i read the only confirmed ace to never lose a wingman in was saburo sakai with 65 1/2 victories and the highest surviving ace of the ijnaf and the last few kills with only one eye
paul

Hofer wasn’t downed by Hartmann, that bit of fiction seems to have come from a poorly-researched article in a US aviation mag some time back.

Hofer was shot down by a Flak battery from the “Legion Condor” flak unit while strafing an airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia (not flying “Salem Representative”, BTW… he was in QP-X for this shuttle mission) He was a good pilot, but much like Buerling, he didn’t work well within a team. When he was hit, he intentionaly dove his stricken aircraft into the flak emplacement, killing at least two of the battery crew.

Ref: “Kidd Hofer, The Last Of The Screwball Aces”, Troy White (I helped with research on this book)

Lynn

Marseille for me – although Hartmann was quite something. The bulk of his kills were on the Russian front but in the latter stages of the war he was performing just as well against P-51’s and is believed to have shot down “Kid” Hofer (who was no mean pilot, out of the same mould as Marseille).

For sheer guts, Albert Ball, Mick Mannock, James McCudden, Molders, Immelman [1] et al all need remembering

JC
[1] Note no Von Richthofen – In my opinion he prayed on stragglers and inexperienced pilots just to build up his score. A good war fighting strategy maybe but not a sign of a great pilot. Discuss?

Agree.

Richthofen may have had the highest score, doesn’t mean he was better. Boelcke and Voss would get my vote, along with McCudden, Bishop, Mannock and Fonck.

Equally Hartmann may have the highest score, but there will always be that question mark because they were all scored on in the East. The 7 victories against P-51’s (including the possibilty of Hofer) over Polesti in a short space of time does indicate he would have had the same success on all fronts, but we’ll never know. Likewise, Marseille’s top score in the ‘West’ was virtually all in North Africa, so he’s equally difficult to assess. There were only 2 Jagdflieger Experten that scored significantly on all fronts, Erich Rudorffer and the great Heinz Bar.

Bar was the top scoring NCO pilot during the Battle of Britain, and ended the war as the leading single seat jet ace with 16 victories with the Me262 (whilst a 262 test pilot and instructor as well as with JV44), was 3rd highest scorer in North Africa/Med behind Marseille and Schroer, was one of the leading scorers in the early period of the invasion of Russia, yet his 124 against Western flown opposition (including over 20 4-engined bombers)was only bettered by his friend Marseille.
All this despite contracting malaria badly in North Africa and breaking his back on the eastern front……and the many run-ins with Goering meaning several demotions and never getting the Diamonds, despite being recommended on 3 occasions.

Marseille for me – although Hartmann was quite something. The bulk of his kills were on the Russian front but in the latter stages of the war he was performing just as well against P-51’s and is believed to have shot down “Kid” Hofer (who was no mean pilot, out of the same mould as Marseille).

For sheer guts, Albert Ball, Mick Mannock, James McCudden, Molders, Immelman [1] et al all need remembering

JC
[1] Note no Von Richthofen – In my opinion he prayed on stragglers and inexperienced pilots just to build up his score. A good war fighting strategy maybe but not a sign of a great pilot. Discuss?

I DO

what about Pappy Boyington, I mean he flew from a primitive airstrip and had to fight against Japans finest in the Straight. Let’s don’t forget some of the jet aces such as Robin Olds, Gabby Gabreski, Boots Blessie, or Richie Cunningham for that matter.

I had the pleasure of meeting Pappy Boyington. A very very aggessive fighter pilot :diablo: Also, you make a good point about more modern jet Aces like Olds and Cunningham. At least I am sure we could get PhII to agree as both flew F-4’s 😎

what about Pappy Boyington, I mean he flew from a primitive airstrip and had to fight against Japans finest in the Straight. Let’s don’t forget some of the jet aces such as Robin Olds, Gabby Gabreski, Boots Blessie, or Richie Cunningham for that matter.

Marseille… I don’t think anyone else had the same raw talent in the cockpit as him.

Manfred von Richthofen

Mark 12 is certainly correct, greatness is entirely subjective. However, from a sheer skill point of view, I’ll go with Marseille every time… his aerobatic abilities were the talk of the Luftwaffe, as was his deflection shooting. Plus, I can’t help but like a guy who gives the figurative finger to all the strictures of the Luftwaffe hierarchy- he only wanted to fly and party.

For sheer guts, it’s hard to beat Rudel… yes, he was an unrepentant Nazi to the end of his days, and for that reason alone he’ll never be a “hero”, but he was an outstanding combat pilot for damned sure.

Guys like Hartmann, Rall, Barkhorn, or even Schuck and “Bully” Lang racked up the scores they did because the bulk of their targets were more concerned with fleeing than fighting back, and they were never rotated out of the combat zone. They were good, no doubt, but I think even Hartmann was rather modest about his achievements… saying something about “it’s hard to miss when they’re 50 feet in front of you” (or words to that effect).

But the Oscar for Best Collective Effort would go to The Few, from ALL nationalities… with England’s back against the wall, they knew what they had to do, and they did it with good humor and steadfast determination. (And no, that’s not a suck-up to the locals! 🙂 )

I think Joe Foss should be on this list, He made a really good showing for most of his Kills beiingin a F4F in the early days of the war (For the US at lest). Most likely the Leading Marine air ace and from everthing I’ve read and heard a Really Great Man.

Axis – Eric Hartmann
Allied – Pat Pattle

Kiwis – WW.1 – Keith Caldwell
Kiwis – France – Cobber Kain
Kiwis – Norway – Lou Jacobsen
Kiwis – Battle of Britain – Brian Carbury
Kiwis – Europe/Med – Colin Gray
Kiwis – Europe, Night – Jamie Jameson
Kiwis – Far East/Pacific – Geoff Fisken
Kiwis – Gutsiest – Al Deere

But then I am slightly biased

Sir Douglas Bader, R.I.P. DB you will alway’s be an inspiration to me to live mate.

Just for what he did in his position 😮 😮 😮 , most would have probably given up on life and simply lived a quiet life in a wheel chair :rolleyes: .

This guy flew fighter plane’s and very well, played Squash, 72 hole’s of Golf in a row quiet often(and was good as well 😮 ), Danced, Walked with out stick’s, I have 2 leg’s and can not do most of these thing’s :rolleyes: .

Way too many Ace’s really to make a pick for me, It’s like naming my favorite plane!!!! I simply can not!!! 😮 .

I think Soviet pilot Ivan N.Kozhedub with 62 Victory’s, making him the highest-claiming fighter pilot of the Soviet and Allied airforce’s during WW2, should maybe get a mention, don’t you think!!!! :rolleyes: .

Hello,

I would add to this list…….
Werner “Vati” Moelders…if you know his life story..you will understand.

Military regards .

Marseille, Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall are all up there in my book.
But was it Rall who said he never lost a wingman in combat? this makes him the best for me, to get 275 victories and keep his wingman …. superb.

Heinz Schnaufer also deserves a mention, well over 100 mostly 4 engine bombers shot down at night with primitive radar, amazing.

One of certain interest would certainly be BoB Ace Helmut Wick who had 56 at the time of his death in 1941. Give him 4 more years in the air and you may have had a 250+ Ace.

Only if he had survived another 4 years…..most didn’t.

And Wick was KIA on 28th Nov 1940 just off the Isle of Wight…. 😉

Finucane

Finucane had 32 victories up to July 1942 (One being Adolf Galland) If Paddy survives the channel and makes it to England, he serves another 3 years. Suffice it to say that he may have very well surpassed 50+ tallies, making an Irishman the best shot in the British RAF. Same could be said of Stanford-Tuck…….Has anyone mentioned Richard I. Bong? Or the Japanese Ace Nishizawa, Gerd Barkhorn or Gunther Rall? One of certain interest would certainly be BoB Ace Helmut Wick who had 56 at the time of his death in 1941. Give him 4 more years in the air and you may have had a 250+ Ace.

Greatest.

It depends how you define ‘greatest’.

We will all have differing views on greatness.

Mark