Why is Spain supporting war?

You are mixing two things. I want my country to keep aside and quiet in general terms, not only applied to Iraq. But although my country be quiet, I am feel unsecure about the new policy which want to impose the US in the external panorama and which of course affects my country. As fas as Maine theory is concerned I probably explain myself in a wrong way. No theory has been proved yet. In other time, Spain was made responsible. Now due to the wreck study, there are theories telling that an explosion inside might have caused the sank. The origen….that´s where the historicians will try to draw a theory which suits his own country, patriotism or interest.

Keltic

if you indeed wants Spain to be a humble and quiet country with no influences…then why take sides? Why blame the US as hashly as you are doing. I would expect somebody to be quiet is not take sides and ask ONLY their own government to not be involved. Humility sounds great and all, but it doesn’t fit what you are saying. Clearly in your opinion, you want to stop “Americans” because of your believes…that’s not quiet at all.

Zippo,

Agent orange was initailly a defoilant, used with the intent of killing the thick jungle foilage that was hiding the Viet-Cong, It was a dumb idea, and at the time many felt it wasn’t dangerous. Did you know the US used DDT widely all over the country to control bugs! I used to chase a truck when I was younger that would drive down my block as it sprayed the stuff!! (Go ahead with the smart remarks!!!) at the time we didin’t know,how dangerous that stuff was! same thing with Asbestos!!!! The beauty of a democracy is eventually these things get exposed and people or corporations pay the price. Diplomacy is a dirty business, You heard of the old adage
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend” The US was allied with Stalin for Gods sake!!! Bottom line, I don’t think everything the US does is right , but for the most part we (US and western Europe) have kept the peace and tried to do the right thing for peoples throughout the world. The US is now confronted by fanatics who despise us, not for our policies, but essentially for the freedom we represent and it is this freedom that doesn’t jibe with their 6th century notions of what the world should be, They want a world where women are hooded, not-educated, No religious freedom etc etc, While Saddam isn’t fully aligned with these groups, they do share a hatred of the US and I believe would jump at any chance to get back at us, They did it in the 1993 World Trade center Attacks, and various other attacks culminating with Sept 11, One US President sat by idly and did nothing about this, while He chased 19 year olds, this President feels something must be done. You don’t have to agree with us, Bush’s biggest mistake was trying to get the world on board, This is our fight and we’ll be happy to deal with it ourselves.
Just remember Al-Qeada planned on bombibg the Millenium Wheel in London, and also operatives were found with Sarin Gas in London, these scum hate all of us including Spain, I know 5 people who were killed at the World Trade Center, (I live near NYC) and my fellow squadronmate in the Air Force was the Co-pilot on United Flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania, so obviously I have a different view point than you. Call me a war-monger, but the difference is I will be fighting in this war while you watch it on TV. And the last thing any of us in the US Armed Forces wants to do is go to that Godforsaken desert (again) and leave our families behind………..warmonger? I think not.

Originally posted by TTP
Keltic,

First off I wish I was as smart as you! second There may be many other nations with Chemical weapons but you name me one that has used them in the last 50 years? Even Hitler didn’t try it!!! I do know the answer ;Saddam Hussein!! He’s also statred 2 wars, Invading Iran, and then when that didn’t go his way, he invades Kuwait because he didn’t want to pay them monies owed for his Iran war effort! Oh, by the way somewhere betwween these 2 wars he managed to GAS his OWN CITIZENS,
Gimme a break!!!!

OK friend, the arguments are solid, but let´s go behind. I don´t want to say that the US are the only responsible for Saddam hussein but mainly France and Germany who provided most of the chemicals. I point the fingers at many countries, included my own one. Sometimes politicians use sensitive arguments to get the people support. About Iraq,,,,the Babylonian despot…indeed a terrible guy, a threat…..but let´s see how he has been made. First he was a friendly ditatorship. Provided weapons, trained and thrown against iranians…because it was a good way to keep allatolas back. Well, attack with chemicals (many provided by Monsanto) and then….oppssss, Rumsfeld visited him a couple of days later, restore full relations with him…..why he wasn´t so impressed by his deeds?. I am not picking on the US only. I know France, German and Russia don´t care peace at all, but his interests, but interests dear friend is what moves all, included the US. And even our pathetic president, who moves himself by a imperial idea of what Spain should be. I don´t want an influencial Spain…..just we want to be quite and as humble as before. I think the real issue is not if Saddam has or not weapons or if he has used them or not. Is that the international rule, based on the UN after the WWII, tried to left behind an order of imperial powers, colonial past to give way a world of sovereign states and international legality based on attacks if being attacked. At least is what democracies should be based. NOW Saddam hasn´t attacked anyone, he was punished in the Gulf War, punished with 12 years of sanctions, but eventually he will be attack because three countries have stablished themselves that they are the world policemen and have the right to behave as bullies. I find that the world is like a big condominium, imagine you have got a neighbour who he´s a danger…….or you think he´s a danger…..quite subjective appreciation, so….would you kill him preventively?…..or go to the police if being attacked. That´s the base….open a big precedent. All countries attacking his neighbours if feeling threaten. Image…Pakistan nuking India, Spain attacking Morocco…Russia Georgia.. Real caos. Sorry for this long and tiresome thread. I promise not punishing you any longer.;)

second There may be many other nations with Chemical weapons but you name me one that has used them in the last 50 years?

I can name one, besides Iraq of course. Don’t know if that’s a good thing though.

Re: and…is that what YOUR propaganda teaches you?

Originally posted by Vortex
The USS Maine explosion is still so far unresolved with 100% certainty, but the most probable was either a mine outside or internal explosion.

Well, We have other sources and theories, I suppose every country has interests in pointing at the other and manipulated history in his own interest.

If the Spanish empire was so great, why one after one in Latin America there’s calls for independence from Spain. Stop pointing fingers at the US and acknowledge that Spain was the problem in the past. Just like Iraq is the problem NOW, not the US.

-Did I say Spanish Empire was so great?, indeed the contrary, a gigant with muddle feet as we say here. All empires are based on blood domination and cruelty, and Spain as a huge empire had lots of skeletons. I didn´t brought history, only to remark that history is valid for certain time and if comparisions are stablished are to learn from mistakes. Spain was the problem then, but it seems that the US politicians doesn´t learn anything from history of colonial past.

Keltic,

First off I wish I was as smart as you! second There may be many other nations with Chemical weapons but you name me one that has used them in the last 50 years? Even Hitler didn’t try it!!! I do know the answer ;Saddam Hussein!! He’s also statred 2 wars, Invading Iran, and then when that didn’t go his way, he invades Kuwait because he didn’t want to pay them monies owed for his Iran war effort! Oh, by the way somewhere betwween these 2 wars he managed to GAS his OWN CITIZENS,
Gimme a break!!!!

and…is that what YOUR propaganda teaches you?

The USS Maine explosion is still so far unresolved with 100% certainty, but the most probable was either a mine outside or internal explosion. No where have i heard from anywhere your SICK conspiracy theories…There’s nothing wrong to speculate, but you speak as a matter of factly to put down what someone simply state what is the current and widely accepted reason for the explosion with numerous scientific and numerical simulations….just for what? Just like on issues of Iraq….tell me why there are people who want to separate from the Spanish rule? If the Spanish empire was so great, why one after one in Latin America there’s calls for independence from Spain. Stop pointing fingers at the US and acknowledge that Spain was the problem in the past. Just like Iraq is the problem NOW, not the US.

Originally posted by optimator
The US went to war with Spain because the USS Maine was
blown up in Havana Harbor..The US had every right to.
Seventy Years later we find out that a coal dust explosion
destroyed the Maine.

Moral: Don’t believe anything you hear and only half of
what you see.

Sorry, dear friend. Is that what US textbooks tell. Maine was blown up by the US to find an excuse to declare the war to Spain and take Cuba from us.

Originally posted by seahawk
Spain has some good reasons to follow the US.

1. Spain has become economically strong. Yet France and Germany refuse to accept Spain as partner on the same level.

-Who told you that?.

2. After the conflict with Morocco Spain knwos what support they can expect from the EU in a time of crisis. And with a potential troubl spot on my border, I would pick friends which I can depend on in a time of need.

Spain, no political interests, no economical interests.

-Who told you that again?. Not big interests, but our “lovely” Aznar, in 1998, when Saddam was as cruel as today, signed a oil contract with the regime. (Repsol, Spanish oil company)

And who wants to decide if a war against Iraq is right or wrong ??
How many Iraqis were killed by the current regime since it came to power. How many people died in the wars it started ?

-So let´s kill thousands more to help them. Who has given us the right to be the “Power Rangers” of mankind?

There are tons of biological and chemical wepaons unaccounted for. Yet Iraq claims to have none of them.

-In dozens of countries in the world.

On the other hand we have the possible high casulities in the civilian population.

Hard to decide what is worth – isn´t it ??

-For me it´s not worthy.

Originally posted by TTP
To All,

I’m new to this forum, and I find your opinions facinating, if not a little disturbing. As an American and USAF pilot some of the opinions really offend me.

-Oppinions can´t offend as long as they are told in a correct way.

For Example, somebody mentioned that the US wants the Europeans to stay militarily weak so we can dominate you through NATO. Give me a break, Most Americans would love to send all our troops home, save Billions of Dolllars and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.

-Probably tue as fas as population is concerned, but not by the US stablishment who has been doing that for years.

Unfortunately, while the US may be far from perfect, the PATHETIC record of some European powers in the realm of foreign affairs leaves nothing to be proud of. Almost every problem facing the US and the world today can be attributed to European colonization of vast areas of the world, and two world wars, started by Europeans, with the result of MILLIONS DEAD, GENOCIDES, and the carving up of the old Ottoman empire into nations with little regard for natural borders and the rights of the indigenous people who lived there (Balkans, Palestinians, the Middle East) So Please don’t Preach to this American!!

-Great the US doesn´t have anything to do with the world problems. We have had a bloody history, but it has been that because we have a long history, and since we learn from errors, we don´t want to repeat them. It seems that the US is working extensively to match us in this point. Don´t remove the past, since there are skeletons in all closets.

Second, try to understand the US is the Intended target of these terrorist groups, we’ve been attcked once,

-Did you ever wonder why?

and Most Americans believe that if Saddam gets some Nukes or other WMD he wouldn’t think twice about using them on us,

-He hasn´t used them in the last 12 years. Do you have hints to suppose he´ll do it in the future?. I remind that there are more than 100 ditatorships in the world with WMD…..

History will note that these same “peace protesters” were out there in the 80’s decrying Reagan as a Cowboy, playing nuclear poker with the Russians, but his policy led to the fall of Communism (another European by-product) and allowed freedom to bloom in Eastern Europe.

-I suppose Mr Gorbachov, and other reformers, and the own russian had anything to do with the change, hadn´t they?. Ten million Spaniards calling for peace aren´t particularly “commies”.

Time will tell who’s right, But I know that appeasing Saddam will not lead to anything but more dead Americans. And that is unacceptable to George Bush.

Originally posted by ELP
500,000. Sounds like a number somebody just made up. Based on what source?

Read on a newpaper. It´s an approximate calculation, based on the previous war, extend of the operation, and mixture of different sources (Pentagon, UN, Amnesty International…and so on), lesser of much more it will a tragedy. I commit a mistake, I refered to to total amount of casualties.

Re: wow..you sure can predict the future.

Originally posted by Vortex
If you can predict 500,000 will die, can you also predict if Saddam is going to attack anybody without being provoked in the future and lets get this charade over with. This is the same issue as if during WWII, the US says, well people in Germany will get rid of Hitler…surely those mistreated JEWS will get get rid of him. No, maybe the French resistence will get rid of him…no, the Poles will certainly get rid of him…we’ll just sit back and watch comfortably from this side of the world. And to Japan in WWII, why we even bother to embargo oil and materials to them…if people really don’t like the Japanese all across East Asia and Manchuria, surely they’ll rise up against the Japanese…eventually…yeah, eventually, so again, we should’ve just set back and watch the show.

WWII, different time, different case, only similar in one case, one country will be invaded again. It was about WMD compliance, wasn´t it?.

Zippo,mixtec,

Zippo, what a pathetic apologist for a tyrant like Saddam, and Mixtec, Ask how did the US get involved in this mess to begin with? Kuwait was invaded by Iraq, and as usual the US has to come in to get the job done since nobody else has the force necesssary, Do you honestly believe that Americans want to be embroiled in this Mess? and if we are such power-hungry people why didn’t we just annex the entire world after WWII Since we had a monoploy on Atomic weopons and could have easily used them ??? It must be nice going through life with Blinders on!

Mitex

The why not North Korea question has been discussed at length, altho not to everyones satisfaction I admit.

Your assurance that Saddam dosn’t have WMD is truely amazing regardless of which side of the war issue you come down on.

Regards

Sauron

….and yet again I’m still waiting to hear just one person tell me how “peacefully” Saddam can be disarmed?

Not being funny with either of you gents – the rights and wrongs of who sold Saddam what IS important of course Zippo but I’d say save it for the inquest after we have all the facts – i.e ALL the Iraqi records that survive. Only than can we really see where the axe should fall.

The inequalities of one course of action on one state over that applied to another is something that can be discussed ad nauseum. In this context, as we speak today, though I’d liken that argument to Scotland Yard refusing to catch any more murderers on the basis that they never caught Jack the Ripper and it wouldnt be fair on others to be caught and prosecuted when he didnt!. In otherwords a bit daft really.

Steve

Why Saddam and not North Korea. Hussien/Iraq really dont have the means to build WMD.N Korea is testing missles and running a nuke program right now. So if the US is really going to take down dangerous dictatorships, it should do this to all the axis of evil countrys and truely make a safe world if thats whats being called for. I personally think the US has stepped over the line by trying to force its will on other countrys and this will be a irreversable error that will turn the US into the dictator of the world.

How?

With the weight of the whole damned UN in Iraq for 7 years not being sufficient to get everything he was hanging on to how is the US meant to accomplish this task? Wave a magic wand?

They could try and turn Iraq into something like the “Truman Show” and have camera’s tuned in on every part of Iraq at all times – hmmm they may have to launch any additional 3000 or so Keyhole spysats which might be a tad tricky operationally, financially and might actually block the sun from ever reaching Iraq but hey its better than war isnt it Kabir!:) 😀

I’m not turning on you personally Kabir its just I’ve heard lots of people talking about “peaceful means” to disarm Saddam and not one single person say how it could actually be achieved and your comment that the US isnt a superpower if it cant produce and frantically wave this magic wand….well….you dont honestly mean that do you?

Regards,
Steve

lets see this point of view…if USA really considers itself as the modern day superpower…it should be able to disarm and overthrow Saddam without an military force. If they fail to do this it is utter failure of there policies and way of handling situations.

Moggey C,

I agree with you! I also “lurk” on the PPrune website, to see a different perspective on aviation affairs throughout the world. After Sept 11 there was alot of chatter about the IRA and the Irish-American funding of them. I grew up in New York, but of Italain background, and while I have many Irish friends I was not aware of this issue. Hopefully with this “war on terrorism” we won’t be so choosey about which terrorists are worse than others and politically I think this must happen. Especially considering the support of our great ALLY Great Britain.
Just a side note, as a Air Force pilot, without giving away anything classified, for the past decade the biggest threats in the world have been Saddam and Al Qieda. This was during the Clinton administration as well. Problem was Clinton just pushed this stuff under the rug and hoped it would go away, and we know where that got us!
Also isn’t it interesting to see how Bin Laden and Saddam, two losers on the world stage, have driven a wedge between the US and parts of Europe!!! The American/European relationship has brought the world great advances in science, the Arts, great rock and Roll!!(at least the English groups!) and has been a force for good. I have traveled to Europe extensively and always enjoyed myself, My father is Italian himself. But today, I’d have second thoughts. Bin Laden and Saddam are laughing right now as they sip their French wines!!!! Now back to the Aviation sites!!