By: Geforce - 15th March 2003 at 19:34
Agree Moggy
By: Moggy C - 15th March 2003 at 13:42
Just to say (off topic)
I am deeply impressed with the reasoned debate from all the parties on this thread.
Deeply held and diametrically opposed views are being discussed intelligently and nobody has descended to personal abuse.
Makes me proud to be a propellerhead.
Moggy
In my name please.
By: Geforce - 15th March 2003 at 09:56
No true, Kabir. A state has always more rights than its citizens. A state has the right to use violence, regular people not. I don’t know about India, but in every western democracy, this is a constitutional right of the national state, as they were formed in the 19th century.
By: KabirT - 15th March 2003 at 09:50
But the people need to realize that they are greater than the state.
By: keltic - 15th March 2003 at 09:31
Originally posted by ELP
…..difficult to understand why the same concept varies in an apparently same situation.Some people don’t get it. Strong leadership involves making what appear to many to be unpopular decisions. These leaders realize this even at the risk of their job. Even the French leader realizes this. That is strong leadership. The German leader I don’t think would stick his neck out for any risk. A safe party man.
Are you suggesting that people don´t know anything, and leaders have are in the possesion of the absolute right?. Just explain people things and you´ll get support. If leaders have failed to make us understand why the war is necessary, it´s probably because they don´t have solid arguments.
By: keltic - 15th March 2003 at 09:26
Originally posted by PhantomII
Get over it. War is not something that you anti-war people can stop. Get on with your lives. Saddam has to be taken down, and he will be taken down. I’m sorry it’s such an evil act to commit.Why does it matter to you if Spain’s government supports the United States. That’s their business.
Totally agree, regular citizens can´t contribute with anything to stop this. Saddam should be taken down, but I am not sure if with war. I prefer to let the countries to handle with their own leaders. Sooner or later they will fall down. I don´t think our leaders be really concerned about human rights in Iraq, but other perverse reasons.
The reason for real anger in Spain, is the change of orientation in our international politics, always orientated to the EU, the Arab World, South America and as a balance with the Anglo Saxons and Europe of the North in many fields. We don´t want to have bad relations with the US, because we all understand that they/you played a relevant role in the construction of Europe, and that Europe as long as we don´t spent more money on defense we can´t live without the US, but we feel that as friends and allies we should be able to decide if a conflict if right, wrong, concerns or not without being threaten, or insulted. So what our goverment has just done,is saying yes, yes, yes not only in this particular issue but in many others, in which we don´t have independent thoughts. Spain/US/UK it´s a real unreasonable axil.
The real issue is that Aznar has poisoned the relation with other European members, has put into risk the small european independence, damaged our links with South American (ask Mexicans what they think of us, for trying to pressure President Fox on behalf of Bush for the war), and has put Spain (considered as brother in the Arab world) as a potential target for international terrorism. We support the US in the Afghan and Gulf war but not now. The real anger is the “so close” ties with the US, over our dignity. Sorry for the long explanation. Friendship yes, but we are not another State of the Union, something which my president would like. And a president which I contributed to elect. 😡
By: PhantomII - 15th March 2003 at 04:51
Get over it. War is not something that you anti-war people can stop. Get on with your lives. Saddam has to be taken down, and he will be taken down. I’m sorry it’s such an evil act to commit.
Why does it matter to you if Spain’s government supports the United States. That’s their business.
By: ELP - 15th March 2003 at 04:31
…..difficult to understand why the same concept varies in an apparently same situation.
That is just it. The use of “apparently”. That is an assumption. A wrong one. The medicine and treatment used to take out SH is COMPLETELY different then the method used to deal with NK. Despite what some shallow minds in the press would have some believe. The Geopolitics are very, very different.
Some people don’t get it. Strong leadership involves making what appear to many to be unpopular decisions. These leaders realize this even at the risk of their job. Even the French leader realizes this. That is strong leadership. The German leader I don’t think would stick his neck out for any risk. A safe party man.
By: keltic - 14th March 2003 at 22:01
Re: yes yes
Originally posted by Vortex
people are so “intellegent”…when Bush became president so many were fearful of his campaign promise of “those are not OUR wars”…now we take it personal and you still have issues? For once stick with your “principles”. If you ask for something, don’t regret if it becomes true. You start seeing those antiAmerican protestors in S.Korea regreting.
I would love the current US administration follow that campaign promise…..but it seems that the concept “our wars” for the current US adm. is very wide and could extend to any part of the world, they consider “of their interest”. It seems that in the case of Korea “it´s not our war” despite being a threaten to the US, support international terrorism, being a bloody ditatorship, and owning WMD….difficult to understand why the same concept varies in an apparently same situation. I am not a radical pacifist, but sees double standards everywhere, and politicians trying to convice me with feeble arguments. I support the Gulf War, but not in this case. It´s a pure invation for economic purpuses. What it upset me, is my president (who I voted for) is using the same argument that Bush uses in the US, for two different societies (so much as Chinese and a Dutch).
By: Arabella-Cox - 14th March 2003 at 21:22
yes yes
people are so “intellegent”…when Bush became president so many were fearful of his campaign promise of “those are not OUR wars”…now we take it personal and you still have issues? For once stick with your “principles”. If you ask for something, don’t regret if it becomes true. You start seeing those antiAmerican protestors in S.Korea regreting.
By: keltic - 14th March 2003 at 20:51
Re: Hehehehe….
Originally posted by BME330
Struggle against terrorism of the other europen countries….hehehehe, you can read in the european press the term “separatist group” or even “freedom fighters” for ETA…-Well, this term is used essentially in British Papers. Terrorists are put under detection in France not in North Carolina, and sent to Spain. So THANK YOU FRANCE.
the french goverment uses terrorism for get deals in Spain, you know all that and you still loves our “mortadelos”….that´s a very fine attitude, from the frenchs…even the LeoIIA6 for the Army was a “digital” contract, we never had any evaluation, but Kohl called Felipito, and got the deal in just ten minutes…our beloved neighbours, even the RENFE trains were bought in the same way…very democratic…sure….
-Of course, and all countries do the same in all aspects. Politics are like this.
Our traditional links with the arab world….my God, that was one of the favourite´s topics of Franco, all we know how many business makes Spain in that countries…Morocco our natural market?
-Did you forget our past, the influence in music, art, architecture, literature?: Roots can´t be denied and in this case, links are clear.
yes sure…..France is the main investor in Morocco, all we know what happened in Perejil/Parsley, in which side is France?
The Floreal “frigates” were almost a gift from France….their main fighters are Mirage….their main military vehicles are Renault (jeeps, trucks, VAB, AMX-10RC…) we know who´s behind Mohamed, and he´s not in Washington…-YES he is Washington. Do you remember Powell call to Mohamed to solve the conflict?. A day after Aznar remark his position a new embassador is sent to Madrid. So Washington is behind, of course, and France too.
With allieds like the french, who needs enemies?, well Zapatero and Filemón…hehehe
You may have a personal hate against the French, but fortunatelly, Spanish people prefer looking to France and Germany than to Washington. And I don´t know what you refering too with quoting Zapatero. I am a voter of PP, and will send “my party” a personal message, and where they should be orientated. And that´s in Europe, where we have shared a common history for thounsand years, sometimes with aliances many with wars (which also create identity) and have the same values. C´est la vie¡
By: BME330 - 14th March 2003 at 20:10
Hehehehe….
Struggle against terrorism of the other europen countries….hehehehe, you can read in the european press the term “separatist group” or even “freedom fighters” for ETA…the french goverment uses terrorism for get deals in Spain, you know all that and you still loves our “mortadelos”….that´s a very fine attitude, from the frenchs…even the LeoIIA6 for the Army was a “digital” contract, we never had any evaluation, but Kohl called Felipito, and got the deal in just ten minutes…our beloved neighbours, even the RENFE trains were bought in the same way…very democratic…sure….
Our traditional links with the arab world….my God, that was one of the favourite´s topics of Franco, all we know how many business makes Spain in that countries…Morocco our natural market? yes sure…..France is the main investor in Morocco, all we know what happened in Perejil/Parsley, in which side is France?
The Floreal “frigates” were almost a gift from France….their main fighters are Mirage….their main military vehicles are Renault (jeeps, trucks, VAB, AMX-10RC…) we know who´s behind Mohamed, and he´s not in Washington…
With allieds like the french, who needs enemies?, well Zapatero and Filemón…hehehe
By: Geforce - 14th March 2003 at 19:06
Wise words, my Spanish friend
By: keltic - 14th March 2003 at 18:20
Good question. First of all Vortex, never understimate the people intelligence of the people. We are adults and know what it suits our interests, and of course this is not our war. Nothing to do with WWI/II, which I had lots of things to say about but it´s other point. This issue is used as excuse too often….reason for our idiot support. He´s split Europe, he has broken our links with the arab world, he´s gone on with an antinatural link with the US, he´s torn appart European dignity……..he´s in the wrong side, completely deaf……some hints, appart from his stupidity.
-Aznar is living in May….he´s not running for the next elections.
-He has divine revelations from God, about what´re interests.
-He´s terrible atlantist with an inclination to Euroescepticism in a country which most of us are euroenthusiasts (we all know what other European countries are doing for us (funds, support in the struggle against terrorism). He´s simply ignorant and prefer an submiss Spain, than a one with a bit of dignity.
-Other questions: We might get the support of the US in his attempts to get into the G8 group.
-US keep morocco´s desires to get Ceuta and Melilla by force
-The new cold fusion nuclear reactor, could be placed in Spain…..
-He´s upset with France entering our natural markets (Morocco, Guinee…and so on)
……and simply he´s drunk with success and wants to balance the power of France and Germany, with an imperial idea of a new Spain….of course the Spanish want other thing and will be sent to the dustbin of history by voters. 😡
By: Moggy C - 14th March 2003 at 18:06
Don’t know why Spain is supporting the war, but I’d hazard a guess it is because they realise that giving in to a regime like the one in Iraq is a very short term policy.
In the end no good EVER comes of appeasment.
Moggy
By: Arabella-Cox - 14th March 2003 at 17:52
…
most Americans don’t want to be involved in WWI and also most don’t want to be involved in Balkans…so what does that say. It says that’s irrevalent. It is upon our leaders to make decisions of what’s right and our leaders to provide us with confidence. We don’t have to agree but in good faith we must trust the leadership, because if that trust is broken they are out of their jobs, THAT’s what democracy is about. Just years ago, the majority of the Americans want segregation…is that saying it’s right to have segregation? When all these Germans during WWII supported Hitler….is that saying the majority is right? Mind you that during Hitler’s time, Germancy was already a democracy.
By: ink - 14th March 2003 at 16:48
Of all EU populations the Spanish are the most anti-war. The poll figures regularly exceed 90%. This should tell you something about what democracy really means when push comes to shove.
By: Geforce - 14th March 2003 at 16:45
Q. Why is Aznar supporting war should be the question?
A. Because he’s a prick
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March 14, 2003 at 3:48 pm