mattAny news on the MMRCA itself?
Just realised, If India picks the EFA and becomes one of the partner countries does that mean if EF consortium is chosen for South Koreas FX context for a future fifth gen aircraft India will be envolved as well?
matt+1.
Europe is in the middle of a crisis vastly more important than the MMRCA, which more or less crowded out other business at the summit. I’m sure Manmohan Singh understands that.
+1 the media is reading too much into it, EU and ECB needs Chinas reserves to stabilise the mess we are in and India can not offer anything of the kind of invest that China can provide.
mattCorrection- India has already paid $295 million towards the PAK-FA contract. So 100% of the funding for the PAK-FA is not Russian.
The Indian money is towards the FGFA for the twin seat or IAF variant of the PAKFA , the PAKFA has been built so far with internal funding. There were even reports posted on this forum saying the same.
Plus the initial bit of money was to train Indian engineers so that they could actually be useful in the partner ship.
mattthe ‘stupidly large number of aircraft of PLAAF’ as compared to IAF argument is itself incredibly stupid. that’s what you get when your one great source of information is wikipedia..
The assumption that i used wikipedia for the numbers is questionable to be polite. Check out the rand report and read the full thing…
Also assuming that the 2nd artilary will not be effective and thus sitting on laurels and not doing anything about it will be majorly stupid!
mattsorry, but this is just hot air… where would those SAM batteries be placed? on the Himalayas?
In WWI you had waves of infantry running towards the enemy in th eopen, but tactics have changed somewhat in 100 years.
Nobody will send waves of fighters straight forward (except in RAND gaming consoles to ilustrate what they want to show), strategy and tactics will play a role and even those MMRCA that you despise so much will be a tough nut to crack for PLAAF, regardless of their total numbers
If you read my post again I did say that the SAM batteries would be something, that does not mean i think it to be the solution.
And i do not think the PLAAF need to send a wave of fighters down south, they have the 2nd artilary to wipe out the run ways and they also have Harpies to go after the short range SAM batteries.
I did not mention anything about WWI or soldiers running at the enemy, if you look at the geography you will see that it will be difficult for soldiers to run across anyway.
You can only plan for what you know, and what you know is that the PLAAF will have a stupidly large number of missiles pointed at every Airbase in India and that the PLAAF will have a stupidly large number of aircraft in comparison to the IAF. you can play the guessing game and presume the PLAAF will not use these in combination.
mattSo you mean, have some sort of rotary launchers on transport sized AWAC aircraft and fire long range BVR AAMs at incoming fighters. Not a bad idea I can tell you that. Provided that every aircraft has 2-3 such launchers with 20 missiles each. Picture few LCAs escorting the beast. :diablo:
With a network you can do same stuff with fighters as well with a AWAC thrown in, so no need to get extra creative.
IAF is geared to be an offensive force BTW.
Money will be wasted. War doesn’t come cheap in 21st century. If you want to save money, talk to Chinese, resolve petty border disputes, deport Dalai Lama, get a understanding with them regarding Pakistan and talk nicely to them and for Goddess sake vote for CPI(M). If you don’t want to do it, then be prepared for any eventuality.
Nothing wrong, but there is already a FGFA project. How many projects you need. AMCA will be a India only project that will help Indian industry further and let them have a go at designing a twin engine fighter with stealth features thrown in. I personally don’t care if it creates another “fracus”. People should learn to look at the positives.
Hi Corrrosion, if money is wasted but it achieves what is intended thats not to me money wasted, however i am talking of trying to matching PLAAF like for like number to number which India can not do. It also does not have anything close to S-300 or S-400 yet from my knowledge (ok there is something in the works i know like everything). And the Su-30mkis IAF has put up in the north are sitting ducks for the 2nd artilary and so to will the MMRCA be if they are positioned up north.
I dont think the issue is with the networking, its about pure numbers similar to the issue the USAF would have defending Taiwan. It will not have enough missiles on aircraft to take on the PLAAF, the USAF has enough planes but not close enough to be useful. For the IAF it does not have enough aircraft. So it needs missile launch vehicles. Even if IAF does something clever like have SAM batteries on the ground controlled by AWACs it would be something.
But in reality it needs something more substative then aircraft with TV or canards to take on the combined issue of the PLAAF and 2nd artilary. And the IAF cant play a offensive game vs PLAAF it will get wiped out completely. Best thing would be to stay back behind defenses and patrol its own space.
matt@ matt
it’s the F-35 buy that would make less and less sense with the PAK-FA introduction appoching
If it’s to counter the J-20 “over the Himalayas”, the PAK-FA will be there for that purpose.
As for the price, lets take the rafale without engines and look at the price it will have…
add to that that the F-35 would mean being dependant on the USA for maintainance and upgrades while the europeans (all of them) offer a much better deal, involving indias industries.
In the end, back to the price, the european aircfraft have a high price in dollars also because the Euro is high against the dollar. If India produces most of its aircraft, that won’t apply anymore, and India’s fighters might be significantly cheaper “in dollars”
J-20 does not worry me so much, it wont be made in large numbers and to me its role is probably more anti ship than ground attack with something like the 2nd artillary why would you waste time and money on J-20 for land attack doesnt make sense.
What is the bigger issue is the 600+ Su-27 or its varients the PLAAF will be able to field in the not so distance future, and India can not match then number to number and it needs to stop thinking that it can match china and stop wasting money on conventional arms and start thinking more asymetric… the perception i have from here is that the IAF is blinkered by the macho/romantic vision of fighter jocks ruling the air and not really worried about how they will defeat or defend against such a lopsided fight.and if it ever happens it will be lop sided!
One of the brutal criticisms of condaleezza rice was that IAF could not think strategically and just went around saying “ah but my plane has canards” or something of that ilk, and i do not think that has changed.. its institutional….
mattHow can you suggest a partnership between nations with minimal defence ties and different expectations from their next aircraft project ?
Wait… WHAT ??? 😮
You don’t need to remind people about your love for the 35, everybody here already knows 🙂
To counter the number of aircraft China will field in a few years time India will have no option but to have a gunship of that nature. Its anti air is obsolete and is always behind the curve and with the 2nd artilary at the door step they will take out the anti air systems in combinations with the harpies etc…
Only way to stay safer (but still not fully safe) is a defensive game along the border with aircraft flying in from the south of India.
The scenario Rand ran with the US airforce Vs china applies more to India, think of the discrepancy between the USAF + USN and the IAF and consider how India can counter without wasting a lot of money.
Why is it wrong for India to work with EUROFIGHTER and S. Korea to make a 5th gen aircraft? Cant be any worse then the fracas with the LCA..and it is bound to be better.
mattwell mmrca makes less sense with the pakfa coming into production soon after. i don’t buy the scaremongering because even after the production of the J-20 it those will not be in as high number as Su-27 derivatives. but financially the MMRCA is making less and less sense. why not tie in with South Korea and Eurofighter consortium for a slightly more stealthy single engine aircraft. Not as complicated as the JSF in stealth but enough to make a difference.
Also to counter China India needs the Awacs equipped with a rotary launcher for air to air missiles!
mattSo india is buying the block III apaches, but are these from the 900 or so that are going to be re-engineered for the US Army or are these fresh from the factory? the russian helos for the same number would have cost 600million as apposed to 1.4 billion,big difference there.
Also will india get the new MMW radar with the greater range or radar from the older block II apaches?
mattI could not believe that article when i read it!
mattWhat are your concerns about the cost or effectiveness of the AH-64D Block III vs the Mi-28NE ? Come up with some concrete issues you have rather than just your regular generic whines. .
I really dont get what you are on about, you asked why the hellfire was chosen for the apache and why pars was chosen for the ALH and so i listed the possibilities… i.e. cost? effectiveness??
Do not understand your post at all.
Cost? Effectiveness? Limits put on by the USAdmin saying that if the Indians buy the 64D then they will need to buy the US weapons as well? Or it maybe that the 64D’s are part of a FMS package and were refurbishes so all that india is getting is being transfered from a us unit?
I do not understand how any part of your long post is needed, re posting my reply to your original
mattA wise decision considering the technical issues that the Mi-28N has been experiencing..But I thought that this was one tender where the Russian helicopter stood a very good chance of pulling it off..I seriously feel that the Eurocopter Fennec will win the light heli deal and the Chinook will be selected for the heavy helicopter requirement, thanks to the poor maintenance issues the Mi-26 has seen in IAF service.
the huge number of Hellfires being ordered makes me wonder as to why the Hellfire isn’t the weapon of choice for the ALH-Rudra and LCH as well? Why look to the PARS-3 instead?
Cost? Effectiveness? Limits put on by the USAdmin saying that if the Indians buy the 64D then they will need to buy the US weapons as well? Or it maybe that the 64D’s are part of a FMS package and were refurbishes so all that india is getting is being transfered from a us unit?
mattIs this a supplement to the LCH? I think most people are aware of the issues and limitations of the Apache. It is interesting how these contracts with the US are being passed or going through relatively quick compared to other purchases. C-130, C-17 and now the Apache 64D…
mattSo it is a cost saving limitation at first. I am still intrested to learn for which weight of each variant the quoted g-limitations are.
Well its more than that if you think about it. When do you turn this limit off? If your pilots are practising, and lets be honest most of the time these days they will be practising rather than actually be engaged in a air-war, what do you do?
For me it is a structural issue
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