mattFighter Decisions Slipping
To the surprise of practically nobody, the schedule for India’s competition to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Aircraft for about $10 billion has started to slip. Although the Indian Air Force completed evaluation of the six competing offers (Boeing F-18E/F, Lockheed-Martin F-16I, Saab Gripen NG, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian Aircraft Corp.’s MIG-35) in May, in-flight evaluation in India cannot begin until three months after the Ministry of Defence clears the air force report. That has not yet happened, and air force officials now worry that the hot summer season will be over before “hot-and-high” flight tests can begin, which could push the trials back to the summer of 2010
From defense aerospace
mattPlease, the M-109 is Self Propelled Howitzers……………….If, you don’t know how they would be useful. You are in the wrong forum…..
Also, I stated the AMRAAM’s are a trade off for Pakistan’s Military Cooperation. Along with the F-16’s which can at least be used in CAS Missions against Insurgents………..
BTW Why are you not criticizing all the other Non-US Suppliers of Arms to Pakistan. Many of which have little use against Terrorist. Like AWACS Aircraft and Submarines (for example)………….These very same countries are also supplying Aircraft for India’s MMRCA. Yet, you only criticize the US…..Funny on how that works????:confused:
They are selling weapons to it yes, but not giving large amounts of money to the pakistani establishment.
See if the money dried out then the pakistani armed forces would be hard pressed to afford a lot of the things such as submarines, awacs etc..
mattSorry, the US isn’t funding current or further development of Pakistan Nuclear Weapons Program. Nor has it for that matter………..
Also, most of the weapons can be used against Terriorist Forces. Except the small number of Modern F-16’s and AMRAAM’s. Which, the US had to sell in order to get cooperation from the Pakistan Military. Which, is very much in the interests of the US and India. Its worth noting the small numbers are no real threat to India nonetheless.
How will the self propelled M-109 or 500 AMRAAMS, 500 Sidewinders harpoons etc be useful in coin ops?
The US is funding Pakistani weapons of mass destruction, the money the US gives pakistan to pay for its conventional forces the less the pakistani establishment has to worry about finding funds for its nuclear program.
Those pesky terrorists using boats in the SWAT valley/Baluchistan and Buner to kill people.. I can see why the harpoons are needed.
simples.
mattHow will putting the JSF under airforce control help save money, they are still going to be bought and operated.
mattFunny, you don’t include the list of arms sold to Pakistan by the other MMRCA Contenders????
Sorry, but your bias is showing yet again………….:rolleyes:
I admit currently i am biased, watch how that changes when the US Congress stops funding the Pakistani Armed forces and its nuclear Weapons! which are weapons of mass destruction by the way (unlike the 0.22 rifles and T-55’s in iraq)
All of the money the US is pouring into pakistan means that pakistan has not had to make the hard choice it would otherwise have to. Shut down its nuclear arsenel and fund only a conventional army or cut down the conventional army and terrorist funding in India in favour of keeping a nuclear weapons to counter India.
The shared technology on AMRAAMS etc is also another reason why India should not buy compromised US weaponry, if pakistan has them China knows of them inside out! making the Indian airforce a little less effective.
mattSeveral reasons the current congress government needs to relook at the people in the MMRCA contest. Very good reasons why India should not buy US.
fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me
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‘Pak built up army against India with US military aid’
6 Jun 2009, 1301 hrs IST, PTIWASHINGTON: Pakistan has used a substantial amount of military aid from the US meant to fight terrorism to build up its army with modern weapons and
equipment for a conventional warfare against India, Pentagon documents have revealed.All this was done with the knowledge of the then Bush administration, which not only provided $1.9 billion in foreign military financing (FMF) but also signed agreements with Pakistan for military sales worth nearly $5 billion during the period, showed the documents.
The Pentagon documents also revealed that a major post-9/11 American defence supply to Pakistan under FMF had nothing to do with its fight against terrorism.
While the Taliban and al-Qaida gained ground in the tribal areas of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan, Islamabad bought eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment worth $474 million. It also placed orders for 5,250 TOW anti-armour missiles worth $186 million. 2,007 of these have already been delivered and the rest are in the process of being supplied.
Besides buying more than 5,600 military radio sets worth $163 million, Pakistan bought six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars worth $100 million and six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment worth $76 million. Under the Excess Defence Articles (EDA), it was granted 20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters, which were then refurbished, according to the Pentagon documents.
Pakistan also used a substantial chunk of America’s FMF to purchase up to 60 mid-life update kits for F-16 A/B combat aircraft valued at $891 million. Of this, it paid $477 million from the FMF funds given by the United States.
Similarly, of the $87 million worth order for 115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers, it paid $53 million from FMF. And all this happened while Pakistan’s economic situation deteriorated.
Islamabad also paid a whopping $1.43 billion to the US to purchase 18 new F-16 combat aircraft and another $629 million for F-16 armaments.
Prominent among these are 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500 JDAM tail Kits for gravity bombs and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for gravity bombs. F-16 has not been delivered to date.
Pakistan also paid $298 million for 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles; $95 million for 500 sidewinder air-to-air missiles and $80 million for six Phalanx close-in-naval guns.
While the Pentagon notified Congress on the possible transfer to Pakistan of three P-3B aircraft as EDA grants that would be modified to carry the E-2C Hawkeye air-borne early warning suite in a deal worth up to $855 million, this effort has not progressed beyond the notification stage.
Major EDA grants since 2001 include 14 F-16A/B combat aircraft and 39 T-37 military trainer jets.
Under Coalition Support Funds — part of the Pentagon budget — Pakistan has received 26 Bell 412 utility helicopters, along with related parts and maintenance, valued at $235 million.
Finally, under 1206 and Frontier Corps Authorities, the United States has provided Pakistan with helicopter spare parts, night vision goggles, radios, body armour, helmets, first aid kits, litters and other individual soldier equipment.
mattThat’s exactly what I think and HAL is doing way at one time too. It is the only company that we have for such projects and at the moment they has to upg Mig 29 (possibly Mirage 2k and Jags), build Su 30 mki, FGFA, LCA, Dhruv, LCH, Saras, LOH, the jv for MRTA + MMRCA soon. To start development of a complete new gen of fighter alone and now will never work and delays will be more than obvious.
Besides that I doubt that a MCA (stealth aircraft mainly for strikes) is really needed if we will have FGFA, MRCA, Mki and LCA for years and most other countries develope stealth UCAVs for that reason. Wouldn’t that be better and more cost-effective?
Well whether the MCA is stealthy or not doesnt matter, the challange of making an bran new aircraft structure is so big that for a little bit
extra effort you might as well make it stealthy.
mattIn my view, it is extremely unfortunate that despite everything being developed indigenously, the IAF is searching private foreign companies for major weapons hardware.
For MRCA, instead of taking Tejas Mk.2 to it’s conclusion, foreign tenders are being invited. For 5th gen. fighter, instead of only MCA, a Russian experimental prototype is being purchased (in which there is nil Indian input till date, unlike MCA which will be IAF’s “baby” from start).
Well the PAKFA would be a good experience for HAL and any other indian private company who is working along side HAL. Just because you do not do the design phase does not mean your not a partner. There are many other challanges specifically manufacturing related challanges that must be faced for any new design.
And as much as I am pro LCA be it mark 1 or 2 HAL is not that experienced an aerospace manufacturer as to go it alone on the MCA. Design is one thing, but to make it real you have to make it.
Unfortunately just being able to lay up and bag up a flat panel or co cure one specific structure does not mean in any way at all that you can now do anything without research and development.
Unfortunately I get the feeling that in India engineering is seen as sitting at a computer doing FEM/FEA Autocad/Catia etc and not the actual nitty gritty of making the parts.
mattClearly, in the short term Pakistan is more of a threat to India, US, and the World in General. Yet, India’s greater threat isn’t a small number of F-16’s with or without AMRAAM’s. Which, India’s Goverment and Leadership understand…………
In my opinion your hatred towards “Pakistan” is clouding your judgement…..:(
So by this logic Iraq should not have been invaded and Afghanistan should have been left alone.
This is not hatred it is natural instinct.
mattMan, you guys are dreaming………..
First, the LCA MK2 is many years off and even then we don’t know if it will acceptable to the IAF. Especially, considering the history of trouble with the LCA MK1…………:eek: BTW HAL has yet to even select a engine for the MK2?
Second, the LCA MK2 is no way comparable to any of the MMRCA Contenders. Including the similar sized Gripen NG………..
Regardless, the LCA MK2 is not going join the MMRCA Competition. So, the point is moot…………
Will all do respect…………
Scooter your missing the point.. it isnt about capability, it is about who can give the biggest back handers. Simple fact is just like the Indian Tank debacle it betters suites the suits in the Airforce and Army and their relations to pooh pooh indeginous products no matter how much promise they show because they get to make bigger bucks wheeling and dealing defense deals and making large contractors fight against each other.
e.g.
Middle man 1 goes to EADS and says “I have good links with so and so, if you grease my palms I can help you out and tell you what bid the other contenders are putting in”
Middle man 1 then goes to Boeing says “I have good links with so and so, if you grease my palms I can help you out and tell you what bid the other contenders are putting in”
Boeing and EADS make a bid.
Middle man 1 goes to EADS and says “Your bid wasnt low enough, boeing did better, you will be run out of the competition. but if you give me such and such admin cost and lower your bid I can put your bid back into the running”
and so goes on the game.. unfortunately this is another thing which has been noticed… apart from the LCA.
It makes me wonder if Dassault were kicked out for real legitimate reasons or not, specially as they have not be let back in.
mattRespectfully, you brought up the point about the US selling advance technology to Pakistan. Yet, never said anything about “Russia” selling to China. Which, clearly is a bigger threat to India than Pakistan. Which, the Indian Goverment just recently said………..
Regardless, I am not trolling and it was your statement that was provocative…..
BTW Don’t be surpised if in fact “China” does get Su-33’s from Russia. As its sales to India are declining by the day………;)
With all do respect………
China although Indias biggest threat, isnt sending terrorists to fight a proxy war in India. the Pakistani Army and ISI is, and it shows the hypocrasy of the Obama administration that they are still funding the Pakistani terrorist mechanism.. They are in effect co-conspirators and accomplasis with Pakistan.
mattSimilarly, it doesn’t make ANY difference regardless of what fighter toy IAF chooses out of the six. They all have more or less the same “gizmos” like AESA radar, sensor fusion, etc. In the International community, we would still remain the Banana Republic (like Qatar, which bought Typhoons or UAE, which bought F-16s). However, if the Tejas Mk.2 is chosen as the MRCA, everyone in the international community — especially SAAB — will discuss at length about Tejas Mk.2 and the IAF.
The internal aerospace comunity has already noticed the Tejas bank on it! If the defense middle men could make profit on the IAF buying LCA you can bet a top Euro that the LCA would win the MMRCA!
Unfortunately the Ex IAF or Ex army middle men stop making money the day the IAF goes indigenous!
mattWhat would you use against an AWACS ideally. Some Anti Radiation thing or your normal AMRAAM ?
You are being a bit naive if you think that Pakistan will do the dirty work for America without getting incentives. The AMRAAM and aid is part of that incentive. That is why they just changed the law. America acts for its interests, Pakistan for its and we must for ours.
If an American jet is selected which version of the AMRAAM will be cleared for India the C5. C7, D ?
Whether pakistan does the work for free or for a few AMRAAM shouldnt matter, if the US wants to make bed fellows with Pakistan then the Defense ministry should have the commance sense to not buy American! full stop! buying power is with India.
mattWith congress in power I have no doubt that the IAF will go for the F-16 or F/A-18 congress has never cared for the well being of the armed forces, congress has always been some how disalusioned towards being pro US even cutting its missile and nuclear programs on the US’s behest in the 80’s/90’s cant remember the time.
Is anyone raising a petition to the IAF and the MOD or even through congress with respect to the MMRCA? if not to scupper the US aircraft atleast to find out a clearly what the IAF is looking for?
I say let the IAF wait for the LCA! By the time the MMRCA is selected and the other parties accuse the purchase of being corrupt and going through another round of trials the LCA will be in service!
mattWell, first the LCA is along ways from parity………….as for Afghanistan and Pakistan. India hardly wants the US to pull out. Because the Terrorist would just step into the vacuum left behind with the absence of the US and NATO Forces. (very naive)
The LCA is admittedly long way from parity but not in all areas! in some yes I agree it is but it would still serve Indias long term stratigic interests better. unless you happen to be a IAF middle man or wing cmdr who is on ghoose (back handers in English) as we say in GUJU.
Unless the US has offered India the F/A-18 E/F II++ the LCA is in parity in some way or another with most of the aircraft in the contest apart from the Eurofighter!
Also Russia, India and Iran were active in Afghanistan at that time being hampered by UN sanctions on supplying arms to the northen front, before the Americans stepped back into Afghanistan and let all of the PA and ISI agents acting as Taliban fly back to Pakistan in the C-130s from kandahar.
As for US selling Military Equipment to Pakistan. You have to offer the “carrot”. If, you expect Pakistan to use the “Stick”! Regardless, what little the US provides is hardly a threat to India. Further, India can afford to purchase far better US Equipment and in far larger quantities that Pakistan could dream of.;)
Its nothing to do with the stick, the US does not have the stomach after such a long fumble through Iraq to even think about taking on an army the size of the Pakistani Army it has hardly coped in Afghanistan and Iraq it would hardly survive pakistan! Specially when its economy is in such dire straights (good band btw).
As much as the west would hate to admit this, the US and the west have no real stick to balance with the carrot vis-a-vis Pakistan! The carrot also does not serve Indias interest it serves the interest of the US who are a million miles away from being afghnistans and pakistans neighbours and the US administration does not care what happens to India (and to be fair as politicians looking after the interest of the US electorate they should not care).
The US does not provide anything little to pakistan the sums of money offered are huge and for a country on the verge of bankruptcy it could be the difference between choosing a nuclear deterent or having a strong conventional army. Both are made possible at the moment with significant financial aid of the US congress. Completely againsts Indias interests!
One last point while the “Typhoon” is a excellent machine………….India has far greater “Strategic Interests” in a close partnership with the US vs Europe. Like containing “China” for example……..;)
If the IAF does not want to support the LCA then it should buy European. Either the Eurofighter or Mig 35. The typhoon is an excellent machine and with excellent capabilities the UK mod I believe is looking to some how offload its Tranche 3 Eurofighters some how.
With the US on the verge of economic fumble and China at its reigns it serves Indias interests better to go pro Europe. A united states of Europe is more meaningfull less meddling, less hypocritical (apart from the UK unfortunately).
Again the US does not have any interests now to act agressively passively or actively against China. I would not be suprised if the US starts to sell military items to China again in the near future.
As for having a strong pakistan, well it serves Indias interests better to have a subservient pakistan which does not have the support of the US or China. Cornered as it is pakistan is too unstable. Better to let it crumble.
A broken Pakistan is a pakistan that other powers in the world could not/would not allow to have nuclear weapons, nor would it have the funds for a large conventional army or the funds to continuously fund terrorists in Kashimir.
It would allow India to concentrate on China.
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