EELightningWell, our lads from Hereford, the SAS, “were there” or are “still there” to help get British citizens and the odd Yank on a “Briddish” ship and out of Libya a few days ago. (*cough* nice cover story BTW *cough* the next time I want to get a taxi from somewhere I’ll remind myself to give the SAS lads a ring before I’ll think about Blue Line Taxi Service…*cough* *cough* 😀 )…
…So I wouldn’t be surprised if the British (with a ‘T’) Government get the RAF to send over a bunch of Typhoons.
Heres another piece from the Guardian:
Britain is working on plans for a military no-fly zone over Libya and is considering whether to arm the opposition forces in the east of the country.
David Cameron, the prime minister, said the UK is “taking the lead” on steps to isolate the “illegitimate” Gaddafi regime.
In a statement to the Commons, Cameron said north Africa and the wider Middle East was at the “epicentre of momentous events” sweeping through the region and that “hopes and aspirations which have been smothered for decades are stirring”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/28/libya-muammar-gaddafi
EELightningIn general, an interesting read, thanks. But interesting in a couple of small areas too…
“The Air Force variant, known as the A model, will be cleared to 9 Gs, the B model to 7 Gs and the Navy’s C model to 7.5 Gs”
A bit further on:
“Nelson said: “It’s not quite what an F-22 is, but it’s better than any legacy I’ve seen.”
I do hope he means legacy fighters as in the US types and not the likes of the Rafale, Typhoon or even Gripen…Or even some Russian types…
EELightning😉 India will get ToT as per the RFP or the fighter won’t qualify.
Well whatever they offer, don’t expect the US to play nicely when India wants something. They’re not offering anything amazing as far as ToT is concerned. And like I said…Its just an F-16…
EELightningNice pitch by LM, but what tech would India have access to? Very little, besides its just an F-16…Next please.
EELightningWe know fairly well the price of the F35, it can change sure, but there is more limit on the bounds of this change. A naval Typhoon has far more scope for problems, and so has a much higher chance of costing more. The key problem though, if any naval Typhoon is made, assuming UK only, will have development costs over a small number of units making it expensive. I don’t see India or any country going naval Typhoon, there are less risky options out there (F18E, Rafale, F35C, Mig 29, SU33…).
WRT to MRCA, the JCA selection is I believe going to occur before then, so it would be a little late for the UK to choose Typhoon naval at the same time the Indians decided to procure a Typhoon naval.
Well according to the sorce Sancho78 posted, thanks for that BTW, it looks like we’re stuck with the F-35. Well yeah we know “fairly well” or have a “rough price” of the F-35, but no “fixed price” set in stone. The price is likely to go up especially with the delay of the ‘B’ variant.
I don’t see why there would be more scope for problems for a Navalised Typhoon than there would for the F-35, between the Navalised version and the land version theres 95% commonality in the two, apparantly. And not to mention the F-35 has a long way to go before its ready for operational service and to add to that, its had quite a few more problems in development than the Typhoon ever did, even then they were mostly political, (thanks to France and Germany, no hard feelngs though.)
On a different note: Its going to be rather interesting and amusing operating the F-35 along side the French on our Aircraft Carriers, the paranoia from the US is going to be immense…I’m quite looking forward to that! 😀
EELightningThere is a widespread assumption in Japan that US technology is & always has been superior in every respect to that of any other country (except, of course, Japan in certain areas), to the extent that many people would not understand why anyone would even bother evaluating anything non-American.
I’ve encountered blank incomprehension when I’ve told Japanese people that radio, jet engines, radar, antibiotics, etc. did not originate in the USA. My partner was astonished to discover that the first jet airliner was British, for example. She’d taken it for granted that it was American. It never occurred to her that any other country could have beaten the USA to it. That’s the usual attitude in Japan.
While the technical experts who’d evaluate any non-US weapons know better, & the MoD can (& does) approve the purchase of low-profile high-technology European products, e.g. ICWI from Thales Nederland for Mitsubishi AESA radars for the JMSDF, something as conspicuous as front-line European fighters for the defence of Japanese airspace would be a very hard sell to technically ignorant politicians.
Kinda makes you think what BS the US feed the Japanese on… I’ve been to Japan before with my girlfriend whom of which is Arabic – from Dubai, spent just over two weeks there and absolutaly loved every moment of it, cities were/are great, such an eye opener and to be honest we were sad to come back. The Japanese people are wonderful as we found out, but on a few occasions we got the impression they were abit…To put it politely…Cocooned, maybe? To give an example we were in a Tokyo resturant type place and got talking to a nice young couple who we were sharing a table with next to the window, seemed very nice, spoke quite good English, (way, way better than my Japanese), seemed very intelligent so on & so on. An Aston Martin DB9 pulled up right across the street clear in our view, all four of us couldn’t keep our eyes off it, gorgeous looking thing, and the guy really thought it was an American car, he seemed quite surprised when I told him its a British car. Of course one could say I doesn’t know cars very well, but he was the one that spotted before us and said: ‘Wow look, Aston DB9, V12 engine’…So obviously he knew something about it, just not its country of origin.
Anyway. If they, technically ignorant politicians, have that attitude then Eurofighter have got their work cut out. Like I said before I’d think about pulling out of the “competition” but then again, I wouldn’t want to risk it case they have a change of heart. I’d just end up going along with it even though I’m suspecting its just a “fixed competition” thats not in my favour, even though at the very least, my product is on par with the US types. Just, turn up, do what you have to do, offer Japan a deal thats similar – or the same whats being offered to India -, show how capable the Typhoon is, sell it the best they can and if they buy it, great, if not, then show the rest of the world that they’ve made a duff deal with the US & play on it but not so much that it’d damage Eurofighters credibility, just enough to make people wake up & smell the coffee. Stir the pot a bit.
Thats my rant anyway.
Personally, I believe Eurofighters stands the better chance in India than in Japan, actually out of the six contenders in India I believe it has the better chances.
EELightningThe Indians have upgraded them. The Indians are going with Mig-29 for the future. Or are you refering to the UK? The UK isn’t particularly interested in a naval Typhoon, too high a risk, too much potential for delays and cost increases, F35 offers a much cheaper solution for them. The only real unknown here is what the Italians and Spaniards will do if F35B gets axed in two years!
Since we don’t know the actual price of the F-35, its way too early to say it’ll be a cheaper solution. Indeed we could say the same about the Navalised Typhoon, but at least with the latter it’ll likely to be a shared programme, developement, cost etc.
But as I mentioned earlier, if India chooses the Typhoon for their MMRCA and shows an interest in a Navalised version, its likely the UK will too. I don’t think the UK would want to do this alone.
EELightningIn America, a “competition” is held for the American Air Force, one of the competitors is American, the other European, the European one is apparantly superior to the American one, but the American one is, well American, what would they go for? *Thinking – $30 billion – Thinking* Oh yeah…American…How surprising… *yawn* :rolleyes:
Why are so many people surprised?…
EELightningWho knows what it’d be like, Eurofighter haven’t released any details yet. But whatever they’d be, it’d certainly be a hell of a lot more than “just a bigger F-2A”. Performance wise, it’d b*tch slap the F-2A, or any other F-16 for that matter, into the middle of next week. So yeah, it does make sense. So much for taking it seriously.
EELightninghttp://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/without-cismoa-american-mmrca-horses.html
So it seems to be a non-issue then? Or? The devil is in the details…
Or…
You, India, can’t have these items if you want to develope one of these types of aircraft on your own. But you can have them, only if, we, the US, are there to keep an eye you which will still mean restrictions, limited ToT and possibly even sanctions if you mis-behave yourselves…
…That more or less sounds like what the US is saying. Like I’ve always said, there’ll never be any trust between the US and India especially since the latter are all snuggled up & comfy with Russia, not that its a bad thing but I certainly suspect that some in the US government and their aviation industry think it is…
Personally, and I’m not being “anti-US” or “pro-Euro” here, if I were in charge of the MMRCA in India, I’d rip up the US offers and say thanks, but no thanks. Their offers are just too suspect.
EELightningEurofighter CEO stresses that if no orders are secured this year that the production of the Typhoon will end in 2015. He doesn’t sound to optimistic albeit I could imagine that T3A production could be stretched by a year or so as it was the case for T1 & 2 to keep the production line running and buy some more time to secure orders. Interesting is the remark that Denmark has approached Eurofighter once again…
As much as I believe Flight Global is a good source for information, it sounds like the author of that particular article has exaggerated a little especially since Enzo Casolini sounded a lot more optimistic & confident about Typhoons future in other, more official articles I’ve seen & read.
Neverless it states the point, Eurofighter need sales for it to be exploited to its full potential – just like any other aircraft on the market, its no different for them.
Eurofighter and Japan: Typhoon would be a great asset for their Air Force, I believe they’d be more than happy with it and no doubt they’d get a hell of a deal from Eurofighter – maybe even a partnership in the programme. But, what goes against the Typhoon for Japan is Japan themselves, they’re very heavily influenced by the US to buy their equipment – i.e. ‘We say buy & you say okay we shall’. Sad fact, which is why I’d probably pull out of the Japanese “competition” – if you could call it that – if I “were” Eurofighter, like they did with Norway. But then again, what if Japan really does want to shy away from US types and are showing an interest in the Typhoon? Well like I say, just like any other type, Eurofighter need sales right now so I don’t think I would want them to pull out. I wouldn’t take the risk. Just never know, might get an email saying we want to buy a number of Typhoons.
But if Japan wants to boost their National Aerospace industry, produce & develope the aircraft themselves, then the Typhoon is the way to go. Despite developing the F-2, It’d be quite unlikely they could do the same with the SH and if they want to develope the F-35, forget it! Theres just no trust from the US side to let them do that.
EELightningAccording to Bernhard Gerwert from Eurofighter; The Typhoons delivered to the IAF will be the latest Tranche 3 aircraft with state-of-the-art electronic warfare sensors and communication systems.
Source: I have a hard copy of the Eurofighter World magazine and the words above are quoted from a interview with him. (Thanks to the boffins in Germany for sending me a copy).
So in that case whatever weapons the IAF would wish to use on their Typhoons, them being European, US or their own etc then they can integrate such weapons. In any case, the weapons India might want on their Tiffy’s are likely to be some of the same kind other users will want too, share the cost. And as I understand, the Tranche 3 airframes will be produced to accept the likes of CFT’s etc and at, supposedly, $108 Million US (£67+ Million?) a pop it’s a good price. Added up, it might be over the $11 billion(ish) deal but they’ll be getting a lot out of it in the long run, ToT, partnership, low-life cycle costs from ones airframe & engines, knowledge and know-how, share of future sales etc. Okay I’m a little off-topic here but I think it’s something that ought to be taken into account.
About Typhoon’s A/G capabilities, I really don’t believe its such a bad airframe as many people on here think it is as far as performing A/G roles in concerned. If you add CFT’s, a centre line drop tank and two Storm Shadows/Taurusessssesess – one under each wing of course. You’ve got a ruddy good stand-off capability and not to mention at the very least, six A/A missiles in case things get a little bit thrisky.
Even with just CFT’s (BTW how much fuel does one CFT hold again?), you’ve got a centre pylon for a designator pod, four other pylons for LGB’s, two others for Storm Shadows/…and/or the other one…And the six others for A/A missiles. Thats a very good capability to have in my book.
EELightningEurofighter “overweight”, yeah right, in the same way Kiera Knightley is. Must’ve been up all weekend trying to think that one up, better get some sleep and a life! *sigh*
mrmalaya, I believe Saudi Arabia have been interested in purchasing a second lot of Typhoons for a while, even before they took delivery of their initial few – if I remember correctly another 70+ Typhoons. Its rather “nice timing” since Eurofighter are pushing hard for the MMRCA deal and not to mention discussions going on with Oman and Qatar…It’ll be a canny share of sales for India if they choose the Typhoon. *wink-wink*
As for the Navalised Typhoon for the UK. The only way they’d choose this type for the RN is if India does IMO. I think the UK might be interested, but don’t want to be the only ones dishing money out for it since they’re the only user of the type with Aircraft Carriers capable of operating the type from. If India chooses the Typhoon and decides to operate the Naval version from IN Aircraft Carriers, then I believe the UK and India could partner up and develope the type together, share the cost and all.
I seen a little bit of a piece in Airforces Monthly(?)…Or the ‘other’ magazine about the F-35 for the UK, whether its good enough for us and seen a quote of something like: “We’re getting an aircraft twice the cost and half the capability”….I’m not too sure what they mean’t by that but I believe they mean’t the F-35. I didn’t read too much into, was in a bit of a hurry…The girlfriend wanted some Ben & Jerrys ice cream… :rolleyes: lol
Interesting times indeed!
Just found something about Japan and the Eurofighter too. Very interesting!
‘In a deal that could be worth billions of dollars and determine one of the primary fighter jets in Asia for decades to come, European aircraft makers are trying to convince Japan to do something it has never done before _ snub America.’
‘U.S. planes have long been Tokyo’s overwhelming favorite, but Japan appears to be wobbling under a strong sales pitch for the Eurofighter Typhoon, coupled with problems and restrictions that have made the American alternatives less attractive.’
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1522287&lang=eng_news
I’d like to know a little more what Eurofighter are offering Japan.
EELightningEurofighter “overweight”, yeah right, in the same way Kiera Knightley is. Must’ve been up all weekend trying to think that one up, you better get some sleep and a life! *sigh*
mrmalaya, I believe Saudi Arabia have been interested in purchasing a second lot of Typhoons for a while, even before they took delivery of their initial few – if I remember correctly another 70+ Typhoons. Its rather “nice timing” since Eurofighter are pushing hard for the MMRCA deal and not to mention discussions going on with Oman and Qatar…It’ll be a canny share of sales for India if they choose the Typhoon. *wink-wink*
As for the Navalised Typhoon for the UK. The only way they’d choose this type for the RN is if India does IMO. I think the UK might be interested, but don’t want to be the only ones dishing money out for it since they’re the only user of the type with Aircraft Carriers capable of operating the type from. If India chooses the Typhoon and decides to operate the Naval version from IN Aircraft Carriers, then I believe the UK and India could partner up and develope the type together, share the cost and all.
I seen a little bit of a piece in Airforces Monthly(?)…Or the ‘other’ magazine about the F-35 for the UK, whether its good enough for us and seen a quote of something like: “We’re getting an aircraft twice the cost and half the capability”….I’m not too sure what they mean’t by that but I believe they mean’t the F-35. I didn’t read too much into, was in a bit of a hurry…The girlfriend wanted some Ben & Jerrys ice cream… :rolleyes: lol
Interesting times indeed!
Just found something about Japan and the Eurofighter too. Very interesting!
‘In a deal that could be worth billions of dollars and determine one of the primary fighter jets in Asia for decades to come, European aircraft makers are trying to convince Japan to do something it has never done before _ snub America.’
‘U.S. planes have long been Tokyo’s overwhelming favorite, but Japan appears to be wobbling under a strong sales pitch for the Eurofighter Typhoon, coupled with problems and restrictions that have made the American alternatives less attractive.’
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1522287&lang=eng_news
I’d like to know a little more what Eurofighter are offering Japan.
EELightningBack in the jet age! 😀
With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act!
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/360-degree/typhoon-india-gets-tech-freedom-act-276
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