EELightningBAE Systems Plc, the U.K. partner building the Eurofighter, is in talks with both Qatar and Oman over the sale of combat jets.
Eurofighter Typhoon will participate in the 10th edition of the International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) 2011, the largest defence and security event in the Middle East and North African region which takes place from Sunday 20th to Thursday 24th February, at the Abu Dhabi National Exhibition Centre (ADNEC), in the United Arab Emirates.
EELightningA bit more detail of a topic posted before via a different source:
NEW DELHI: The US seems to have committed a howler in the race to bag the “mother of all defence deals”, the $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for IAF, which is in the final lap now.
Washington has expressed serious doubts on the ability of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to handle projects like the MMRCA, dubbing it “untested and suspect”. This drew a sharp response from a defence ministry official, who pointed out the defence PSU was already engaged in producing a frontline “air dominance” fighter like Sukhoi-30MKI with Russia’s help.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/US-doubts-HALs-capability/articleshow/7524987.cms
Sooooooooooo…What they’re saying is, don’t expect much in terms ToT because we don’t trust you!…
…Like I said they’re not doing themselves any favours.
EELightningCosts & T3 – that’s the problem, we don’t get enough in return for the highest costs. Mainly an air superiority fighter that we already have and where we will get FGFA. The limited A2G and multi role capabilities would make EF not very useful.
Not to mention that every capability that won’t be cleared by the partners have to be funded by India, which makes the EF even more expensive.AESA – We discussed it before with Swerve and my point remains, that the fact that it is still only prefunded and that the consortium itself says, that it will be available only in 2015 and the longer the partners wait for a final decision, the higher the risks for further delays.
Financial trouble – True, but it’s easier to manage it with only one defense budget, but EF partners have 4 budgets and all of them facing big cuts. At them moment, it is very unrealistic that the partners will keep their T3B orders, let alone their T3A orders. UK even wants to sell their T1s and some T2s to Oman. Entering the consortium in this stage is very risky for India.
Navy – LM is offering F35 B and C, but yes for Gripen it’s the same.
Fast induction – I meant commonality, similar training, already placed support (where EF has and advantage over the Gripen and US fighters, through BAE and UK)
Similarities to MKI – Complementing to me means, offering capabilities that the MKI don’t has, but that is exaclty the point, both are meant for the same air superiorty role. Highly maneuverable, high speed, long range radars, IRST…, the only difference is the low RCS, but without good A2G capabilities (which are even limited by the design), it’s competing the MKI, not complementing.
Again, I respect your words and you certainly make some interesting and debateble points. I see, I get you on the fast induction part, forgive me I wasn’t quite sure the first time, thanks for clearing that bit up.
For the likes of costs & T3, thinking about it now I think its a bit early to talk about what ‘has been offered’ for India, I’m sure we’ll find out later on after they’ve talked a deal, but interesting to chat about neverless.
The navy part, well, like I say I don’t think its very important in this particular competition but it’d certainly makes things easier if say the likes of the Rafale was chosen as far as commonality is concerned.
About the radar, I get where you’re coming from but I think its fair to give Eurofighters AESA a chance and financially, yes I agree the four consortium have had problems in this area as have many others, Saudi Arabia are looking into updating their fleet of Typhoons to T3 as we speak…This particular topic is quite complicated to get to grips with; the thing is, to help get the Typhoon to having a greater potential and capability, it needs a big deal such as this to help fund it otherwise its going to find it difficult to getting where it needs to be in the future, hence why Eurofighter are trying very hard for this. If it wins this competition – which I believe it can – then the flood gates will open up pouring with upgrades, capabilities, growth potential etc, which in turn will open up greater oppurtunities for future sales of which India will get a share of. Its like a chain reaction. Theres not many deals – if any that is – where you get a share of future sales of the chosen type, comes in quite handy especially when Saudi Arabia could order 70+ more which has been stated in the past. Eurofighter need this and I believe India do too.
About its capabilities, well you want something that’ll be on par or better than the MKI and for it to operate along side it. I’m not saying ‘just because’, but, the Typhoon fits this bill rather well IMO. I’d rather go for a mix of Typhoon’s ‘n’ MKI’s than I would say for example, a mix of F-16’s ‘n’ MKI’s.
I suspect we might agree to disagree I think. 🙂
EELightningFrance, Red Flag, Garuda last year, now Varuna with IN and the next Garuda exercise is in planing, for 2012/13 in India.
Thanks for that.
Typhoon is a front runner only on 2 reasons, EF partnership / offsets and because most people thinks it is the best A2A fighter and therefore is the best fighter in general, but it has its downsides too:
– most expensive fighter
– AESA planed to be ready at last and most likely not in time
– T3 including all tech and weapon capabilities not cleared yet
– EF partners in big financial trouble
– limited A2G capabilities
– no real choice for the navy
– not good for fast induction
– similarities with MKI in roles
Some fair points I agree but:
Your 1st point: Most expensive fighter. Yes but look what they’re offering and you know the saying, you get what you pay for.
2nd: What makes you think the AESA radar will not be on time?
3rd: Not yet but, its capabilities can be cleared earlier if India chooses Typhoon. Same can be said for the other contenders.
4th: Same as above.
5th: Same can said for the F-16IN and Gripen. It’d be interesting to see a Navalised F-16. Anyway, I don’t think its that important in this particular competition.
6th: It would probably take as long for the F/A-18 SH with its “stealth pods” & all and the “Super Viper” LM is presenting. Saying that the RAF have 50 spare Typhoons.
7th: Its not a bad thing, if they’re going to operate along side eachother then they’ll compliment eachother rather well, especially in the region of India they’ll be.
Don’t take my replies the wrong way, they’re not criticisms. 🙂
EELightningWell I did not state who I think should win but rather who I think is the most likely to win, and that’s the SH, mainly due to politics, but also because it a mature, quite cost-effective fighter with overall quite decent performance (in particular with those EPE engines). In additition it comes in a carrier version.
I’m aware of what you said and I respect your words. Don’t worry I’m not here to start an argument. I’m just typing my thoughts out too. 😉 IMO if the SH does win it’d be due to politics mainly. Yes its mature which is always a good thing as in the same way another contender is a new(ish) platform, other types are quite cost-effective and certainly at least two other contenders have better performance, i.e. Rafale and Typhoon – especially the latter.
The reason why I mentioned carrier capability is because I have noticed (as I am sure also you have) that both Saab an Eurofighter have presented carrier versions as a “possible solution for India” — now why on earth would they do that? I think there is a reason, and I suspect the reason is that Boieng and Dassault are trying to push hard the idea of lowering the number of fighter types in the Indian defence forces. True the MMRCA is IAF and that’s not Navy but still… I don’t think they present those plans without a reason.
Maybe. In short, I think the reason, or maybe the main reason(s), why the likes of Saab and Eurofighter have presented their Navalised Aircraft to India is to more or less say; ‘If you choose our aircraft for your MMRCA we can work more closely in developing the chosen type….’ Or something. I think this is where ToT comes into it and it must be said, this is a critical area for India. Who knows. Quite a bit early to tell I believe.
Typhoon is great but the support from 4 big EU countries have been not very impressive to say the least… It actually needs some work to get to where India wants it to be. And it is quite expensive. It does not offer the “independence from the US” that Rafale does. It does not offer the low price of Gripen or the (IMHO) shorter and quicker route the a marinated version.
Support not very impressive? Support for India or between the four countries? Support for India as it seems has been as good as it could be, between the four members, well its debatable for another thread, things such as AESA, Meteor and Storm Shadow are underway to be operated by Typhoon from 2015. Agree, it might need some work to get it where India wants it to be but I’m sure Eurofighter would be more than happy to introduce other capabilities for, and with India at a quicker rate whatever they way be. And Boeing aren’t in a much better position with their “Stealth Pods” & all for the SH, they’ll need to be tested, developed and put into production.
Becoming an Eurofighter partner may seem very attractive, but then again with all that bickering… and with 5 partners it becomes even worse!
With respect I disagree. They’ll have a lot more independance with upgrading/developing the Typhoon that they would from a US type. I do believe Eurofighter have stated they can develope Typhoon to their own needs and operate it however they can.
The F-15 was not asked for AFAIK, and also that would definitely be too close to the SU-30MKI…
Hmmm I find that rather odd. Apart from the SH being Aircraft Carrier capable, theres not that many areas I believe SH is more capable.
EELightningComplete story
I would not put too much emphasis on this, still it is interesting to read what the US ambassador is thinking about different things….
I still think SH have the biggest chances.
However I am reconsidering the chances of Rafale — Lokes current hotlist for MMRCA:
1. SH
2. Rafale
3. NG
4. EurofighterWhy Rafale ahead of the Typhoon? Because it already has an aircraft carrier version. But why NG before the Typhoon? Because it’s much cheaper than the Typhoon, and because it will be much simpler and less costly to deliver in a carrier version.
Respecting your opinions but, overall, going by what I’ve read through – through various sources etc, Eurofighter have the better offer on the table where aircraft performance, growth potential, ToT, partnership, share of future sales for India etc as far as I’m concerned & I’m not just saying that because I’m rather fond of the Typhoon, I’m just as fond of the Rafale and Gripen but as I say, Eurofighter offer the better deal. And since the IAF don’t have Aircraft Carriers then, well its not a requirment in this particular competition so its hardly worth talking about.
Other than that, the RAF have had at least two excercises with their Typhoons and IAF’s Sukhois in the UK and in India & I believe there is another exercise with the same types due very soon. And correct me if I’m wrong, the other contenders…Haven’t?
If I “were” the IN and had a choice of aircraft to choose from to fly off my Aircraft Carriers, I’d certainly look into a Navalised Typhoon, see if it’ll work and see if I could get sale shares from it if the RN/MoD chose to buy & operate them. Saying that, I’d probably have to go for the Rafale as my first choice, its a rather fine peice of kit and once its recieved a few more gizmos and what not, it’ll be right at the top as far as Navalised Aircraft are concerned.
And about that article, if the US or whom ever really did say those words then they’re really not doing themselves any favours, are they…
On a seperate note, maybe this question has been answeared already but, why didn’t the US bring the latest version of the F-15 to MMRCA competition?
EELightningSaudi Arabia seekes Tranche 3 capabilities for Typhoon fleet
Saudi Arabia could modify its Salam programme acquisition of the Eurofighter Typhoon to equip part of the fleet with Tranche 3 capabilities. BAE Systems disclosed the potential contractual shift on 17 February within its annual results report.
EELightningI think the British would be one of the main driving forces behind the Indian bid. If the Indians bite, the RN will have in effect, a naval Typhoon option for their carriers without having to pay any development costs and also make a hefty profit and keep a great many jobs safe for years to come.
If the Indians do go for the Typhoon, it would be interesting to see how that would impact on the RN F35 dealings.
Although I am not sure if the Indians would want to go for a naval Typhoon since they are already committed to the naval mig and the Rafale is already fully carrier capable and ready off-the-shelf today and offers pretty much the same capabilities as a naval Typhoon would.
Oh a fellow Geordie, ya alreet wor kidda? LOL
I think Eurofighter are pushing the hardest in this competition, they seem to want this deal a lot. A lot of people are, to be fair, quite critical of the idea of Navalised Typhoon. If Eurofighter say its feasible and can be done, then let them do it. I really dont think Eurofighter would put their credibility at risk if the knew too right it wouldn’t work.
If India chooses the Typhoon and shows an interest in a Navalised version then I think the UK would too. And as far as I’m aware, if India selects Typhoon they’ll have a share of future Typhoon sales too with them being a partner & all, so they’ll get a share from UK Naval Typhoons if it’ll be an option…
…IMO I “sense” something going on here as far as sales wth the Typhoon is concerned…Ask Oman to “wait” a short while for their Typhoons then when India selects Typhoon, they’ll become a partner, thus get a share of the sales. Back to Oman, now about these 20+ Typhoons. Meanwhile India is rubbing her hands! Very clever idea from Eurofighter to make what is already a sweet deal that little bit more sweeter. *wink-wink*
Back to the Navalised Typhoon, like you say, I’m not sure India would want a Naval Typhoon too. Then again I’m not sure what they want in general as far as a Naval airframe is concerned. If I were India I’d certainly look into a Navalised Typhoon and the Rafale would just be too tempting. I sure want the UK to go for Rafale for the Carriers well be sharing with France, it makes perfect sense to do so in my book.
EELightningSomething interesting about Eurofighter Typhoon from Cassidian.
•Selection of Eurofighter Typhoon will elevate strategic relationship between India and Europe
•Eurofighter partners invest in India even before the MMRCA selection
The Eurofighter Partner Companies are keen to win India as a new industrial partner for the production and further development of the world’s most advanced swing-role combat aircraft. Speaking at a media conference on the occasion of Aero India 2011, Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems and Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH, outlined details of the industrial partnership offer to integrate India as a partner in the Eurofighter programme. Mr. Gerwert said: “Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc.”
In order to phase India into the global Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a significant manufacturing and engineering partner, the Eurofighter partners pursue an ambitious industrialization strategy. Gerwert explained: “We are starting to develop the base for a comprehensive future supplier network which will plug India into the global Eurofighter supply chain. Even before the MMRCA selection, we invest in making India a new home for the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
‘Even before the MMRCA selection, we invest in making India a new home for the Eurofighter Typhoon.’
They’re very, very confident.
EELightningI think a Navaised Typhoon could work, its not impossible to make it a carrier capable aircraft, it could just be difficult, it depends who knows. If Eurofighter say it can be done then they should get a spare Typhoon airframe and give it a make-over & prove their point. If it turns out to be any good and affordable then put a price on it and put it on offer. The UK might not want to buy it but if India chooses the Typhoon, they’ll have a say in future upgrades and what not, if they want a Navalised Typhoon then there you go, if they’re willing to pay for it then theres nothing to stop them.
On the F-35; personaly if I had my way I’d drop it. I don’t fancy putting an order in for something I don’t know the price of and not being able to actually “own” & having to “ask for permission” to upgrade. Dispite what the other “partners” in the F-35 programme thinks, I think its a crap deal and I don’t care if its suppossed to be “second only to the F-22”, load of pish!
It’s going to be rather interesting when we operate the F-35 along with Frances Rafales on our Aircraft Carriers – with the French of course. The paranoia on the US side is going to be immense, (and ammusing 😀 ).
Which is the reason why I’d go for Rafale, commonality, training for aircrew and ground crew, maintenance, costs, upgrades to name but a few.
EELightningBits ‘n’ bobs from a new edition of Eurofighter World. Very much focused on India and the MMRCA competition.
The UK’s Secretary of State for Defence Liam Fox visited the Eurofighter Typhoon Office in New Delhi on the 23rd November, meeting a group of high-level company officials during his stay. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems and Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH, briefed Liam Fox on the current status of the Eurofighter Typhoon campaign to win India’s tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).
In October 2010, the Royal Air Force began putting Eurofighter Typhoon through its paces again, when it kicked off a series of back to back international exercises spanning the breadth of the globe and testing the aircraft’s deployed operational readiness to the full. Flying from their UK bases, six Typhoon’s from both 3 and XI Fighter Squadrons deployed first to Indian Air Force (IAF) Base Kalaikunda, West Bengal as part of exercise Indra Dhanush 2010, one of a series of bi-lateral training exercises between the RAF and IAF. Immediately after this exercise was completed, the aircraft were re-deployed to Doha, UAE to participate in Exercise Air Khanjar in November. All in all, the same six RAF Typhoons operated on a deployed operational basis, away from home for close to three months!
And much more. The interviews are very interesting, they sound confident they’ll come out on top as winners of the competition.
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/ef-world_1-2011.pdf
EELightningDATE:09/02/11
SOURCE:Flight Daily News
AERO INDIA: Eurofighter reveals offer to produce navalised Typhoon
By Craig HoyleThe Eurofighter consortium is offering India the opportunity to acquire a new version of its Typhoon for use from a future indigenous aircraft carrier, with the first firm details of the proposal having emerged at the show.
Being shown in model form for the first time this week, the European type would receive several new features to support its proposed life at sea. These include a new, stronger landing gear, a modified arrestor hook and thrust-vectoring control nozzles for its two Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engines. The latter would enable the fighter to approach the vessel at a reduced speed without restricting pilot vision by requiring an increased angle of attack.
Eurofighter says only localised strengthening would be required on some fuselage sections near the landing gear, and to the EJ200. Conformal fuel tanks could also be integrated with the airframe to extend the strike aircraft’s range.
Video footage being shown in the Eurofighter and BAE exhibit areas includes recent simulation-based imagery of tests made using adapted flight control software and new engine modelling. Sporting Indian navy markings, the navalised Typhoon is depicted taking off from a deck space similar to that aboard the ex-Russian navy aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, which is now being modified for Indian use.
Also of interest for Indian applications is a new weapons option being displayed for the first time with a full-scale model of the Typhoon. Working in conjunction with Saab and Diehl, Eurofighter is offering the RBS15 anti-ship missile as a future payload for the multi-role fighter.
The company is also showcasing technologies including an active electronically scanned array radar offered for the Typhoon, and providing demonstrations with a BAE-developed smart helmet display system for the type.
Like I’ve always said, Eurofighter are offering the better deal.
About a Navalised Typhoon, well to be fair, its not impossible, just difficult – if that is the correct word. In the same its not impossible for a .338 sniper round to hit its target at 1.5 mile, it can be done. Just in the Typhoons case, theres the matter of paying for it…
…If it can be done at a low(ish) cost & all and still be an effective aircraft and India are interested in the idea. Then give it a go. But, if Eurofighter are serious – which I think they are – then they ought to build at least one or two demonstraters to prove the their claim and simulations right.
EELightningWhy would the USMC want a 4.5 Generation Fighter. When it could have a more capable 5th Generation Type???
You could say the same about India in your dream world. :rolleyes:
EELightningMMRCA aircraft even if it is F-16 will not have much impact on IAF since major chunk of MMRCA aircraft will be based in North East and Forward bases of Eastern Sector (Kolkata) which will also have MKI. Recent Articles and air force officials have made it clear that MMRCA winner will be based in Eastern sector , other aircraft’s like Tejas ,Mig-29,M2k ,MKI will defend Western Sector .
Quite correct. To be honest, ToT, avionics and what not aside, performance of the aircraft is critical IMO if it will have to operate along side the MKI on occasions, especially in that particular area. When you think about it, its self-explanatory why the IAF sent up its MKI’s against the RAF’s Typhoon’s on, IIRC two occasions? Once in the UK and again in India a short while ago and not only would it have been a “vs” contest, its safe to say that they would’ve worked together too against the likes of the Tornados, Harriers, Mirages, Migs etc.
EELightningRegarding rhe refuelling by drogue, IMO the Canadians really should have thought about that a little earlier (unless it was planned and has since been dropped).
Didn’t the UK have a similar concern many moons ago?
If the Canadians want their F-35’s to be refuelled by via a drogue, then I think the US would just say; ‘If you want them to be, you pay us to modify them for you-send your, (or our) aircraft to the address given, (same goes for everyone else too!) Thank you have a nice day.’
I very much doubt the US wants to pump more money into this programme, especially for something that doesn’t really bother them, its a matter of; ‘you get what we give you!’
Either way, it looks like the Canadians are going to have to spend money on either replacing the F-35’s refueling systems, or more than likely, replace the refueling systems on their tankers.
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