EELightningMy inderstanding of this news report from India makes a crystal clear response to earlier approach from Pentagon about F-35 on offer to India.
Edit: It also looks like Pentagon/LM was fishing with this F-35 offer, regarding the F-16/18 MRCA tender in work..
Looks like it backfired a bit..;)Clearly there is no room for F-35 in IAF inventory, there can only be one FGFA.
That beeing Navy or land..Any thoughts?
http://www.defencetalk.com/india-rejects-us-f-35-jsf-offer-31733/
Well, he’s right, they cannot have two types of FGFA, even if they could afford it they wouldn’t. Even though India is working closely with Russia on the PAK-FA/FGFA, imagine the sanctions the US would put on India and “their” F-35’s? It wouldn’t be worth the effort, there would be very little trust.
And you’re quite right, it does look like it backfired abit. And this little sentance caught my attention; “the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India”. Aggressive sales pitch? What does it mean by “aggressive”? “You WILL buy one of the US types NOW” or something or is that a little exaggerated?
Well either way, looks rather desperate.
EELightninghttp://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/31/352411/battle-royale-for-indias-mmrca-crown.html
Battle Royale for India’s MMRCA
Thanks. A very interesting read. And it states pretty much the same as I’ve always said; ‘Technology transfer is, of course, a critical aspect of the MMRCA competition’, not a strong point for the US but for the European types. I believe that this can be a deciding factor.
If the competition is delayed for whatever reason then it just gives the likes of Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen a bit of breathing space to get some things sorted in time, AESA radar etc Not that I think is a big deal anyway, I believe and they believe they could still be on time for deliveries & all.
I also wasn’t quite aware (or maybe I knew but didn’t look into too much detail in this area) that India would take a share of future Typhoon sales, if they were to choose Typhoon, with them being a full partner of the Eurofighter programme. If Oman can “wait a little” for the Typhoon, along with them, Saudi Arabia-if they want to order another 70+ plus Typhoons- and maybe even Japan will order a number, India would get quite a share of sales. That makes Eurofighters offer that bit more sweet if you ask me. Thats a clever idea by Eurofighter IMO.
Does anyone know what France offers with Rafale as far as ToT is concerned?
EELightningIf, you believe the PAK-FA is a better Striker than the Super Hornet. Then make you point……:rolleyes:
Unlike you I’m not making a claim which one is better especially when we all do not know what A/G capablities the PAK-FA is capable of just yet. Just seems ironic since you claimed on another thread that; “Regardless, its not becoming obsolete like current 4/4.5 Generation Fighters. Which, is clear with the advent of the F-22, F-35, PAK-FA/FGFA, and J-20.” But hey like you said; I wouldn’t make any XXXX vs PAK-FA claims at this early stage…. :rolleyes:
So, if the SUper Hornet isn’t the frontrunner. Would you care to elaborate on which type is????:confused:
Why don’t you provide a source saying the Super Hornet is the “front runner”?
EELightningLOL
Russia is hardly an open book and has a history of misinformation. So, I wouldn’t make any F-35 vs PAK-FA claims at this early stage.
Yet on the MMRCA thread you claimed, and I quote; ‘The Super Hornet is a far better Striker than the PAK-FA’. So yeah, you made a claim at this early stage. Although it being a “Super Hornet vs PAK-FA” claim.
Despite posting very little or at all on here, I’m finding it a rather interesting thread, just a shame about some posts. D’oh!!!
EELightningIf, Indian selects the Super Hornet. She may think about joining forces with Boeing. Maybe merging the AMCA with the USN’s F/A-XX Program. (i.e. Boeing)
Then why don’t Boeing promote that Idea in the competition? Even though they haven’t then don’t expect them to. Especially since India is “quite close” with Russia in the PAK-FA programme, there’ll be a bit of mis-trust on the US side, thats where sanstions and what not come into it. Not good.
And if the US stated that India could join the F-35 progamme, then think of the same thing. The US don’t seem to trust their “closest ally”, the UK, with the F-35 and we’re “level 1”, let alone another with close ties with Russia.
Plus, the Super Hornet is the frontrunner in the MMRCA Contest.
Got a source for that?
The Super Hornet is a far better Striker than the PAK-FA. Which, is designed as an Air Superiority Fighter.
Thats quite a claim you have stated there, especially with the PAK-FA being a “stealth” aircraft. Just because it was designed as an Air superiority Fighter doesn’t mean it’s only capable of that capability, its quite likely that it’ll have a very basic A/G function at least, too. Just like the F-22 has.
No offence but, I’m not sure I understand your logic…
EELightningPersonally, I believe ToT is the one of, if not the main thing here for the MMRCA competition. I think a lot of people are over-looking this. For European and Russian prospects, they have the best chance of winning, more European especially for the likes of Rafale and Eurofighter. Like I said before, I believe Eurofighter have the best to offer as far as ToT is concerned, partner membership which will mean India will have a say in the project etc. If Dassault can offer a similar deal, performance and capabilities aside, they could give Eurofighter a run for their money.
As for ToT for the US types, well we all know the US isn’t really very keen on this so I don’t think India would like to purchase a US type if the US is going to play hard in this department. Plus, not to mention, as far as airframe potential and designs is concerned, they’ve been updraded as much as they could have, theres little left to do them especially since the likes of the Rafales and Typhoons airframe are more advanced and offer more potential. Plus, India are going to operate these aircraft for the next 40 years or so.
Just my two pennies worth.
EELightningExcept that he’s always opposed it being scrapped. His nether regions were well covered.
I believe he’s opposed to a lot of the cuts, especially of the Harriers. But what I meant was, on the BBC news he talked more about it’s negative points more about it’s positive points. He could’ve dropped a bit of a hint that they are actually needed. I get the feeling that his opinions are as just as hopeless as ours, the general public and the ones that operated them…
EELightningI believe the F35 should be capable of doing what you say don’t worry. I want it to be at least useful if the UK is going to operate them:D
Yep, every six of them, two for the RN, one on each carrier, two pilots per aircraft and the other four for the RAF, eight pilots per aircraft. They’re going to be ruddy expensive you know! 😀
EELightningJust been watching the 6 o clock news on the BBC, there was an interview with the Minister of Defence Liam Fox who made the usual points about MRA4 being late and over budget. He did let slip an interesting thing in that if the capabilty is found to be needed in the future something else WILL be purchased from elsewhere.
In other words off the shelf purchase of a proven type. Also some face saving back tracking.
I just seen it, too. He kind of shot himself in the foot and the bullet ricocheted up his ar$e…
EELightningMy theory, not that it matters, there is some sort of plan to “scrap” 50 Typhoons. Although I think the meaning ‘scrap’ is a little over-exaggerated but there you go. So anyway, last time I checked Oman is apparantly in the process of signing an order for around 24 Typhoons. If India chooses to purchase Typhoon, they’ll want the intial 18 Typhoons-give or take in numbers, theres your 50 Typhoons.
Saudi Arabia supposedly wants another 70 Typhoons, well heres 50 if you want them, get another 20 later on. Or if you don’t want them just yet, we can just hold them in storage until you’re ready to purchase them.
Thats my theory, or theories I must say anyway…
And about these Typhoons airframe life thingy-ma-jig is almost spent up. I don’t believe that for a minute. Load of pish!
EELightningHow is the F-35B a waste of money. When no other country has a Modern Stealthy STOVL in the works???? Sorry, you logic escapes me……..
Further, while some can agrue the advantages and disadvantages of the STOVL F-35B vs the F-35C in Carrier Operations. The Rafale is clearly inferior to the F-35C and in most respects to the F-35B.
At a matter of fact the French have yet to win a single export order for the Rafale. Even the FX2 Contest in Brazil that was suppose to be a sure thing for the “Rafale” is back up in the Air!
Respectfully, PM Cameron had the right idea from the start. Unfortunately, he wasn’t in office at the start of the CVF/JSF Program. 🙁
How is it a waste of money? Well, less capable, more expensive, that is the case apparantly! PM David Cameron thinks that, you said so yourself that he had the right idea from the start, so, you kind of answeared your own question. No wonder so much logic escapes you…
When the F-35 enters service, wait until its been on a few training sorties before you say the Rafale is “clearly inferior”, please. Besides, I’m talking about whats better overall as far as commonality, performance, maintainability, training, cost and so on and etc is concerned for Royal Navy and for the French Navy too for that matter. If the Rafale can be good enough for them, then it can be good enough for the RN’s FAA too, if it’ll do the job it was designed to do, then thats fine and I’m sure the RN would jump at the chance if they got that particular offer. Like I say, the Rafale is a very attractive choice IMO, especially since we don’t even know how much the F-35 will cost yet.
EELightningand you can’t help but think that its because the UK MOD had been told something about the B that they didn’t like.
When the Tories/Lib Dems got in, I watched their first appearence as leaders on House of Commons on the BBC. PM David Cameron was very critical of the F-35B saying it was, or is going to be, ridiculously expensive and less capable of the three variants and criticised Labour for the go ahead of that particular model. Deep down, I got the impression that it was more than just the price of the ‘B’, more like it being over-complicated & complex, more expensive to maintain, likely to be over-weight and I dare not think about it’s performance. I didn’t vote for PM David Cameron but I’m glad he made the decision not to purchase the ‘B’ model…
…IMO, the ‘B’ model is just a waiste of A LOT of money. If it gets “solved” and put into production, it’s going to cost a lot of pennies and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the price of the ‘A’ and ‘C’ variants go up, too. Quite likely! So much of it being “affordable”.
Like I’ve stated many times before, those Rafales look rather attractive. Sharing Aircraft Carriers with France, French operating an aircraft that is proven and in service and will be flying British Aircraft Carriers, British RN pilots with no Fighters, more commonality with weapons etc, likely less to maintain hence being cheaper, c’mon PM Cameron, it’s right under your nose. Take the hint.
Just my two pennies worth. 😀
EELightningIf a majority of Canadian politicians, general public etc don’t want the F-35 over fears of it being too expensive or for whatever reasons and want a cheaper alternative but might think the CF/A-18 is getting a little too old in the tooth. Then why not say, to keep it simple, purchase a bunch of bog-standard(ish) Typhoon’s, strike a deal with Eurofighter to produce a number of parts in Canada to help create jobs, wouldn’t that be an okay option? Bearing in mind that it’ll be easier said than done.
EELightningThe Super Hornet offers a great deal of Advance Technology. It’s ready and more mature than the Eurocanards. Plus, it’s cheaper and the US will fund many of it’s upgrades for decades to come……..
The question is, is ToT. And we all know that this isn’t the US’s strong point and this is an area where India thinks is very important. The Eurocanards on the other hand, well to be honest my memory is a little sketchy on the Rafale and Gripen as far ToT is concerned so I’ll say Eurofighters offer on ToT. Of all the players they offer the better deal in this area, percentage wise I’m not 100% sure & I believe they’re still discussing that but if they’ve been offered a partnership in the Eurofighter program, then you can be sure it’ll be quite a ruddy high percentage.
Then theres the question of future upgrades, and being the ‘5th member’ of the consortium they’ll have a say in the project and if they want to upgrade the aircraft themselves to suite their own needs, then there will not be a problem.
Then theres the question of airframe potential. Yes, it’s fine to say that the F/A-18 is more mature and offers a great deal of advance tech etc but it’s also fine to say the Eurofighters is still a relatively “young” and offers a great deal of tech, and more, it’s a two way argument. I think it’s fair to say the F/A-18 is old, (mature) where as the Typhoon is, well, newer. Airframe wise, without doubt the Typhoon’s is way more advanced than the F/A-18’s with it being designed and operate at and above supersonic speeds in the A/A environment etc where as the F/A-18 was not. Basically, the Typhoon’s airframe offers greater potential.
Avionics wise, I don’t think the F/A-18 is “ahead” of the Typhoon a many like to think it is. Yeah of course, in the A/G role the F/A-18 is, currently, ahead of the Typhoon, I wouldn’t think oterwise, but if the latter is selected then I’m sure Eurofighter could quite easily speed up the A/G development process.
It must be taken into consideration that the selected aircraft has to serve India for the next 40 years. IMO it’s common sense to go for the newer platform that, overall, will offer the greater capabilities later on.
My two pennies worth anyway.
Currently there are plenty Tornado crews around, which are fully combat ready and trained for using Taurus as well. On the other hand there are not many full combat ready Typhoon pilots around. Much of this is caused by the fact that a pilot needs to have at least 7 years of service left, to put him into the Typhoon course. So the Tornado and F-4 fleets have many highly experienced pilots around, while the Typhoons struggle to get a decent pilot fleet trained. Integration of new weapons, can wait at the moment.
Do you have a source for this?
EELightningActually it was an addition to what I said to you and I meant, that the US fighters and Rafale are ahead in terms of beeing fully developed (at least those capabilities that were offered to India) unlike EF, Gripen, or the Mig. These 3 need much more time for further developments, integration of weapons, in some cases even to present the final prototypes. That’s why fast induction will be difficult with them, if possible at all. You could see the difference even in the trials, where the US fighters and Rafale were the first to be fielded and came already with those capabilities that they offered (F16 came with the new CFTs, Rafale with AESA radar…), while the others couldn’t show much.
I see, well. In terms of being difficult a far as induction is concerned, well like I say if one gets selected they’ll just up the rate of production, a little harder than US types and Rafale, yes possibly. If at all, which I believe you might mean impossible? Not at all, if they knew they couldn’t get the first few introduced I think they wouldn’t have entered the competition. I think they have that part of the selection process covered.
Yes, the types, you mention need more time for development for weapons etc. Thats hardly a bad thing at the end of the day, can’t blame them for being a newer more advance design, especially the Typhoon, Rafale and maybe Gripen, too. By time production of a type is in full swing, it’s quite likely weapons, avionics etc will be introduced with the funding & all.
About the trials, I’m not sure it mattered what type was shown first, second or last or whatever. Besides, I think Eurofighter, (or the RAF and their Typhoons) done a wise thing by having an exercise with the Indian Air Force, which ironically, on the way back home, they stopped off at the UAE to have an exercise with UAEAF and their F-16’s…The variant of F-16 the US is proposing to India. Thats convenient isn’t it? But anyway, like I say I’m not sure it mattered that much what type was shown first.
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