EELightningI think you should reread my post. I didnot say there is no improvement it is just that improvements are not fundamental considering the cost increases. cost will further increase when production rates slow down and further investment diverted to JSF.
I think you ought to re-read the posts other members as well as myself have posted, if you even bothered in the first place.
Do you know exactly how significant the enhancements and upgrades are and how much they’ve changed the aircraft since 2003? In case you didn’t know, costs increase when aircraft are upgraded and enhanced to perform more effectively with the capabilities they’re given, that’s pretty obvious. And what are the cost increases by the way?
Where’s the reports suggesting that production will slow down and costs will increase as a result?
Whom is stating that further investment will be diverted to the F-35B?
As mentioned already on several occasions, Typhoon WILL replace the Tornado GR4 in the A/G role: Meaning; Storm Shadow (first flight this quarter with an introduction in 2015), Paveway IV, Paveway II (enhanced), Brimstone or more likely SPEAR III, recce/ISTAR capability (all more or less already suggested in the 10 year defence plan).
Now, this the part where you’ve totally failed to grasp anything anything, proved wrong and resorted to the blatant obvious:
where is the Growler version of EF?. see Austallia F-18 example
Where are the requirements for such a variant?
where is carrier version of EF?. F-18/Rafale/MIG-29 and JSF/PAK-FA carrier version are sure thing.
Probably because the Typhoon operators don’t have aircraft carriers or simply require another aircraft for that role.
No engine upgrade to deal with more higher power radars, extra weight of CFT.
For an aircraft that can go straight into the vertical after take-off and go supersonic by time it reaches 6,000ft (while still in the vertical), there’s little to no call for an engine upgrade to deal with those. It already has a very impressive thrust to weight issue, and that’s being modest.
No Meteor operational.
See Fedaykin’s post. Besides, what other aircraft is the Meteor operational on?
No AESA operational.
Again, see Fedaykin’s post.
how many standoff supersonic cruise and antiship missiles EF can launch simulataneously?
Why don’t you think about that?
EELightningBetween you and AERO, the two have covered almost everything, only ROVER and the active arrays in PRAETORIAN were missing from the (bleeding extensive) list.
I forgot about those, that list was just off the top of my head so I’ve most certainly missed out a few more things. There’s also much more going on right now, of which I’ve given my word to keep silent about, (and even those were just small snippets). It’s certainly going to stir a lot up, in a positive way mind.
EELightningNowadays, swingrole Typhoon tranche 2 SRP 10 P1EA (very soon SRP 12 P1EB) is an incredibly evolved Eurofighter in comparison with “mono-role” Typhoon t1 block 1 SRP 1.
There have been a lot of changes in hardware (IRST, DASS complete, HEA Striker, enhanced engines (not more powerful, but with extended life and less time between inspections), Litening LDP, dual-guide bombs, big changes from T1 to T2 like replacing most part of avionic computers…). And a lot of software versions, which you completely ignore, which are revolutionary steps in the fighter’s evolution. The biggest change beeing the current P1E software package.
And, as others said, they are preparing CFT’s, AESA, Meteor…
If I may additionally add; the Drop enhancements, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Drops 1 and 2 have already been introduced and are in frontline operational service, elements include most of what has already been mentioned and much more in addition. As afore mentioned Drop 1 was introduced pre/during Operation Ellamy (Libyan campaign) in 2011. Drop 2, first flight in May 2012, was focused on SA in A/A, avionics updates including displays and controls, attack and identification, defensive aids and communication sub-systems as well as sustainability to the Tranche 1 fleet. Drop 3 has been funded and bought into by the Typhoon partner nations and is currently being flown by the industry. This includes MIDS, DASS and radar enhancements and upgrades and other enhancements, some of which are brought forward and are yet to be defined to the general public as is with Drop 4 and 5.
In addition to the Drops, there is a UK-led radar enhancement programme known as R2P (T2P on Tranche 2 units) and T2Q. There is also a phased DASS enhancement programme but details are obviously kept at a strict minimum. P1EA is complete and is due to enter service very soon; in short, enhancements are for MIDS, DASS, IFF Mode 5, upgrades to ASRAAM and IRS-T etc etc etc… P2EB is currently being test flown…
Source: Industry Report, Combat Aircraft Monthly, January ’13. Old news.
EELightningWell, I can only partially agree here. The same way some people can’t be ar$ed to do a little bit of posting of the proofs they allegedly possess but can be ar$ed to post overly agressive gibberish to defend their stance.
The door swings both ways.. In other words, if you already have the list of differences, then I can guarantee you that posting it here makes 100 times more for the sake of your argument than concentrating on how people putting the Typhoon in doubt are nothing but trolls.
I’ve posted a list of things on this thread as well as others on a number of occasions and posted details they’re quoted from, basically repeated myself over & over again, as have the likes of Scorpion82 too for that matter, yet some people don’t seem to nor want to take anything on board which of course is up to them, I’ve got no issues with that & it certainly wouldn’t make me lose any sleep at night, yet still they go on to post gibberish regardless. But it does get rather tedious posting the same information again & again, fair enough if someone takes something away from it – all well and good, but if someone claims something like JSR posted and in the manor he had done which indicates he might know something about the programme, I thought it’d be a good idea to offer him the opportunity to go into detail about what he knew rather than someone else that really does for once. After all, he seems to think he knows something. As it turns out, he doesn’t.
EELightningThe point is the hardware is roughly as good or as bad as it was from the very beginning. The addition of Pirate, integration of few LGB types or bolt-on connections to CFT do not substantiate the highly increased price compared to the one from ten years ago.
As I said, there’s a whole set list of differences, most of which aren’t even widely reported even by Eurofighter GmbH which is poor PR on their part, nevertheless they’re not impossible to come across.
If some people can’t be ar$ed to do a little bit of digging but can be ar$ed to post gibberish without even attempting to research deserves a bit of a going over. If one doesn’t know something, what’s wrong with simply asking, surely it’s more respectable than looking like a twit.
EELightningwhen customers buy it they simply dont have money for anything else.
Fedaykin beat me to it and addressed your “points”, however… Spain, bankrupt, 6+ million unemployed, 57% of youths unemployed, large portions of small towns/cities with property deserted and even have a 5 year old international airport in ruins, hardly the fault of the Eurofighter programme. Italy, despite being largely frowned upon to work on a Sunday it’s no wonder they’re in such a state in terms of economy but they’re in a slightly better position than Spain are, again hardly the fault of the Eurofighter programme. Germany, a very healthy economy, healthy import/export situation, one or two defence programmes have gone down the pan but that’s due to incompetent political decision making, once again hardly the fault of the Eurofighter programme. Austria, what is there to be said about them… they have minimal requirements for their Typhoon fleet so that’s their choice. Oman, much to early to tell yet they’re having a ball of a time in spending, both planned and current as is the same for Saudi Arabia.
The big one is the UK. Despite losing a lot of personnel in all branches of the armed forces, the RAF losing their entire fleet of Harriers and Nimrods et all, the UK have a �160+ billion plan over the next decade. Typhoon will replace the Tornado GR4 in the A/G and recce role and gain the capabilities Fedaykin pointed out.
Regarding the differences in Typhoon in 10 years, I said ‘go into detail’ not add ‘there is no fundamental difference’ to your gibberish to make yourself sound a little less incompetent. There’s a whole set list of differences, want to try again?
EELightningYes i agree that sdsr15 is coming soon but im just cant believe a fleet of 100 aircraft is sufficient to be a credible force for the uk.
100 F-35Bs? The number of F-35Bs floating about is in the low double digits, those are just initial numbers and there’s no fixed amount determined as of yet. Regardless, there is talks of additional orders of the aircraft. One must keep in mind that whatever the number the MoD goes with these also include aircraft for the Royal Navy FAA.
Unlike the 1940s it isnt ggoing to be the case that if a problem occurs we are going to be able to not only produce new fighters extremely quickly but pilot training wont be done in 8 hours of type training as it was in BoB
As said beforehand; training is exempt from being cut.
EELightningWell, the US Aggressor Fleet is getting very old and will have to be replaced soon. So, something is going to have to be done in the next few years. Unless, the US disbands it’s Aggressor Squadrons which I personally doubt. As for used Flanker they would be hard to support and expensive. If, not the Typhoon what other option does the US really have????
Well, do what every other air force does, do without. Other air forces manage to gain just as effective training with what they’ve got.
EELightningI thought the Tranche 1’s were to be retired???
To quote myself from another thread.
Regarding Typhoon Tranche 1s being retired by 2019, I think such information is quite vague. Indeed, not so long ago it was “officially confirmed” that they would be retired by 2019 however, there are various reports (official) in a number of Key Pub’s magazines and elsewhere that the Tranche 1 units will be replaced by the F-35B, however a year stating when hasn’t been reported (not to my knowledge at least) and it must be taken into account the Tranche 1 units are currently going through quite a major upgrade & enhancement process, for example the ‘Drops’, of which there are five planned (Drop 1, Drop 2, Drop 3 etc), Drop 1 was introduced before/during Operation Ellamy in mid ’11 and they’re only at Drop 2 right now, Drop 3 being not that far away. These kinds of upgrades are to make them as common as possible in contrast to Tranche 2 and 3 units… I’d be confident to say that ‘retired by 2019’ is old news.
In addition, and ironically, as it stands at the moment Tranche 1 units are more capable than Tranche 2 units so they’re being deployed on exercises that involve Swing-Role sorties much more often so in comparison it’s most certainly safe to say they’ve clocked up more mileage.
EELightningI can’t see the British compromising on pilot training the way the French are intending to do.
Nah, they won’t. Training is exempt from cuts.
I suspect future RAF will be smaller – current strength is about 220 aircraft (120 Tornado, 100 Typhoon). Both Tornado and Tranche 1 Typhoons are to be retired by 2019, thus leaving 107 Typhoons.
Indeed, the RAF will be smaller but I suspect there might be a period, albeit a very short one, where we could (I emphasize could) see the F-35B, Tornado and Typhoon in service all together. I really don’t see the RAF retiring the Tornado before the F-35B enters frontline operational service leaving the Typhoon the sole frontline fast jet, even when the Typhoon will take over the Tornado GR4 in the A/G role – according to Station Commander Ian Gale. Regarding Typhoon Tranche 1s being retired by 2019, I think such information is quite vague. Indeed, not so long ago it was “officially confirmed” that they would be retired by 2019 however, there are various reports (official) in a number of Key Pub’s magazines and elsewhere that the Tranche 1 units will be replaced by the F-35B, however a year stating when hasn’t been reported (not to my knowledge at least) and it must be taken into account the Tranche 1 units are currently going through quite a major upgrade & enhancement process, for example the ‘Drops’, of which there are five planned (Drop 1, Drop 2, Drop 3 etc), Drop 1 was introduced before/during Operation Ellamy in mid ’11 and they’re only at Drop 2 right now, Drop 3 being not that far away. These kinds of upgrades are to make them as common as possible in contrast to Tranche 2 and 3 units… I’d be confident to say that ‘retired by 2019’ is old news.
EELightningFor the record, the Navy does DACT all the time….probably more than the AF. Just sayin….
That’s what I believe. There’s no reason why the US Navy wouldn’t let their Super Hornets exercise in DACT sorties. They were actually training with and against the RAF in Exercise Razor Talon, Western Zephyr and Red Flag this year… Still, one wonders would say such a thing regarding not letting take part.
As a matter of fact I would love to see a number of Typhoons used as Aggressors by the USN/USMC/USAF. Which, are available used (T1) from RAF Stocks. Which, could be supported by private contractors. Really, I see it as very doable………..
I’m afraid that’d never happen. The RAF are keeping the Tranche 1 units, they’re well stretched enough as it is even though they have Tranche 2s and are due to start introducing Tranche 3s, their training programme is very, very active and are due to take part in Exercise Magic Carpet, Android Preference, ATLC courses in the UAE which are quite regular these days, and Devil knows how many more there is to be announced plus their annual visit to the US of which I forget the name of now… these are excluding their regular duties in the UK, Europe and QRA on The Falklands plus the current enhancements and upgrades the Tranche 1 units are receiving right now. They’re too valuable to hand off to the US for their own needs, if the US want to exercise with them then they should pop over the Atlantic or the RAF could pop over to the US and train & get something from it. Otherwise, it’s a bad deal for us.
EELightningGrowler, providing you posted under a different name over on F-16.net as is suspected, nevertheless the question still stands: What is this meant to mean?
“I’d doubt seeing the Rafale or Eurofighter compete with the Bug, normally beacuse the Navy never allows a Navy combat aircraft to compete in DACT training. While the Bug had scored a gun kill against a raptor in 2006. While the Rafale and Eurofighter are allies.”
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-24095-start-30.html
EELightningWhat do you mean by this?
Meaning, with the combination of HEA and Typhoon the pilot has a 20:1 hit (kill) rate advantage over conventional fighter and pilot combinations. I assume the conventional fighter combination was another Typhoon pilot without HEA.
EELightning…I’m no critic how am i such a critic?
You threw such a hissy fit on the Typhoon thread when someone brought up the some issues regarding the Super Hornet and called that person a critic. You’re doing exactly the same as that person, albeit without actually doing it as well as he did.
Hey Does anybody know how is the F-35 is truly better than a updated F-16 and could it even out-maneuver a F-16 or SU-27/35 in a close in fight?
Give it 7-9 years and you might get an idea.
EELightningHEA on Typhoon has a hit ratio of 20:1, it’s probably noteworthy that the JHMCS could achieve similar results.
Sign In
