EELightningSorry, no idea. As you know, we won’t receive new Typhoons until 2015, we want to sell our T1s and we’ve stored some of them to economize. By now, Spain hasn’t required integration of new weapons or capabilities, as far as I know. I think is part of regular payments.
I dind’t post the new because I’m annoyed of our MoD giving money to industry while letting our armed forces collapse. We need a deep reorganization but nobody gather the courage to do it. No money for fuel, for maintenance… We need structural cuts, not operational ones.
Indeed, it is rather saddening not just for Typhoon (although it is quite sad if those really are part of or for regular payments), but more for the other areas in the Spanish Armed Forces in general. I understand them to be highly professional in all branches as well as highly efficient in regards to working with what they have, it is quite a shame and I do hope they’ll get the support they deserve.
On a lighter note:
Senior U.K. Royal Air Force (RAF) officials say that the Eurofighter Typhoon is “overdelivering” in terms of developing new capabilities for the air arm.
Speaking on the eve of the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford on July 19, Air Vice Marshal Edward Stringer, Assistant chief of the air staff, said that the “narrative” around Typhoon was changing.
*
Wing Command Rich Wells, commanding officer of 11 Sqn., which took Typhoons to Red Flag, said the aircraft had been tested throughout the exercises. “We thought week one was bad, but week three was as bad as you could imagine in terms of threats. Typhoon shouldn’t be pigeonholed. During Red Flag, we really started to take the handcuffs off.”
*
Stringer pointed to the United Arab Emirates, a key target nation for the Eurofighter consortium that is hoping to sell 60 Typhoons to the Gulf state to replace its fleet of Mirage 2000s. The RAF has had Typhoons on regular deployment to airbases in the region for several years, taking part in exercises such as the Advanced Tactical Leadership Course at Al Dhafra airbase. Stringer said the deployments were strengthening partnerships and relations between the air arms and governments, and also would help industry in the long run. “That feeds back into growth and prosperity,” Stringer added.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/asd_07_29_2013_p04-01-601325.xml
Wells said the Typhoon was quickly given the nickname “Slayer” by U.S. Air Force crews because of the tally of air-to-air kills it built up during the exercise.
Should be piloted by Kerry King! :dev2:
EELightninghaha thanks for the insult.
What did you expect, the British Armed Forces quaking in their boots? *Sigh*
EELightningThe Mariano Rajoy government of Spain is not all about cuts in spending, after having just approved an additional increase in the budget of the Ministry of Defence of 877.33 million euro in 2013, in order to meet the payment obligations of major weapons programs, according to the plans drawn up by the Secretary of State for Defence, Pedro Argüelles.
***
Almost half of the total budget, 337.5 million euro, is destined for the Eurofighter program, whose prime contractor, EADS, will gain. Over 93 million will go towards the public shipbuilding company Navatia, who will be constructing the Juan Carlos I. Another 88.26 million will be spent on the Tiger helicopter, just slightly under 70 million will go to the frigate F-105 Cristóbal Colón, and 46.6 million will be destined for the transport aircraft Airbus A-400M.
Any snippets of information about what these costs will go on on the actual programme… Aereo?
Kind regards.
EELightningSo how are you all? Any problems with your livers? The JSR drinking game can be tough going! I have a suggestion every time JSR posts a stupid comment just post the drunk symbol as a reply! We will all know it is the JSR drinking game and have a good laugh and it saves plenty of time typing long replies correcting his drivel. Good idea?
:very_drunk:
Or, just reply with Spinal Tap quotes.
Nigel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and…
Martin: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel: Exactly!
Martin: Does that mean it’s louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel: Well, it’s one louder, isn’t it? It’s not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You’re on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you’re on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Martin: I don’t know.
Nigel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Martin: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder!
Martin: Why don’t you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
*Pause……..*
Nigel: These go to eleven!
😀 😀 😀
Or, quotes from Top Gear:
Clarkson: My KTM has specially engineered independent push rods!
May: What do they do?
Clarkson: They make everything better.
May: How?
Clarkson: They make the car quicker!
May: Yeah but what do they do?
Clarkson: The make it superior in every way.
May: Yeah but how?
Clarkson: They make it ‘brilliant!’
May: Yes, but explain how they make it better?
Clarkson: … They make everything better!
:dev2:
EELightningYes F-16 was basic and so was MIG-29. But the budget and development at that time was to create a basic airdefence fighter in shortest time. not some multi decade super fighter. EF from the start was expensive programe. so the fighter entering in 2003 should have every thing.
And so where the other aircraft I mentioned. There’s no doubt that the programme was/is expensive, so why are you saying the Typhoon should have had everything when it was introduced? If you can answer that while taking everything into account, requirements, training, budget, R&D, costs, roles of other aircraft so on and so forth, you might start getting a bit of respect.
Cost not just increasing because of upgrades. Cost increases due to slow procurement rates and long R&D times. upgrades are very minor.
Upgrades cost a lot for any programme, granted it progress has been mind numbingly slow, up until now that is, nevertheless, the upgrades and enhancements aren’t minor.
I asked you two questions regarding costs and how significant these enhancements and upgrades are, you’ve failed to provide anything.
160b pounds in 10 years. from where these figures is coming from and the credibility of politicians in implementing it in 10 years. it isnt self explanatory either. India does not have that big budget and it is supposed to over take UK. so UK can maintain more nuclear subs, larger aircraft carriers on smaller budget?
Who cares about India, they’re not part of the discussion so there’s no point in bringing them into it because you can’t grasp anything.
Figures: Here you go, official:
http://www.nao.org.uk/report/ministry-of-defence-equipment-plan-2012-2022/
http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MOD-equipment-plan-exec-summ.pdf
http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MOD-equipment-plan-full-report.pdf
Which part isn’t self explanatory again?
2002 is very old missile if it hasnt been upgraded interms of speed, rcs and steep dive s curves. It is not brahmos. Aeroplane has more and is more verstile so various features can be upgraded.
Do you know the capabilities of the Storm Shadow? Somehow, I very much doubt that you do.
those are small pods.
Size is irrelevant: What is relevant is that what they do, something you clearly doubt.
The point is Naval Typhoon from 1980s would have more success. with continous enhancements.
You’re blatantly ignoring what was previously stated, either that or you’re lacking something.
It only confirm Meteor is short range missile that current Gripen radar can fully exploit it. and even that is not integrated and bought for Typhoon.
Care to go into details about that or do you just want to keep quiet and save yourself some embarrassment, another Troll was wise to do that.
There is alot of radar manufacturers. so i am not sure why such claim of best M Scan radar.
See Spitefire9’s post.
EELightningAs for guidance i agree laser plus two tanks takes up 3 stations, is there a valid reason why an ldp couldnt be wingtip hosted? Not sure how heavy they are. But even if you used central station for that and if there wre internal cannon surely on two stations you could carry quite a few brimstones on one side and dual paveway 4 on the other side simikar to what reaper does.
The only reasons I can think up, for now and would of concern, not to have an LDP fitted onto one of the wingtip stations is weight and possibly Field of Regard, it’s by all means doable I believe. Having said that, if I were to deploy the Hawk in such a role I’d do away with the Cannon altogether, I’d fit a LDP on the centre station and a couple of Rocket Pods on the wing tips replacing the Cannon. Despite not having a Cannon the Harrier got along very and were effective with their rockets, they even had advantages over the Cannon, harder hitting, higher HE etc.
Other stations could be used up for external drop tanks, I’d always have two of those fitted. Primary weapon would be the Enhanced Paveway IV. So, to summarise: 2x Paveway IVs, 2x Rocket Pods, 2x External Drop Tanks and 1x LDP – Sniper Pod. For the Number 2 aircraft, same configuration minus the centre stationed LDP, stick on extra Paveway IV on that station. It’s not the greatest configuration but it ain’t bad neither I suppose.
EELightningwhat you date has no relation to aviation.
Neither is calling someone a racist.
however I must say that referring to the Saudi Typhoons as your “Arabic Partner” is a bit of a stretch, even for you.
A human girlfriend, you obviously haven’t heard of one before.
So… since you want to stick to aviation, regarding Typhoon for the thread’s sake, and since you avoided my earlier question about the apparent lack of knowledge why don’t you point out which areas I’m lacking in regarding the aircraft?
EELightningnotice how you like to focus on attacking people most of the time rather than sticking to the topic.
are you that afraid of JSR’s opinion on the typhoon?
Notice how you like to Troll.
If he’s got an opinion, that’s fine I can respect it. If he’s been stating silly claims without backing them up like he has done the past few pages, well that’s his problem, he’s going to be put straight.
insecure about your own lack of knowledge which is why you divert away from aircraft discussion?
Lack of knowledge? Go though my past posts on this thread about the Typhoon, it’s enhancements, upgrades, capabilities etc and feel free to point out which areas I’m lacking knowledge in.
EELightningMake me
Mr. UK ultra nationalist
Nice of you to admit you’re a Troll.
Oh and, if I were a UK Nationalist I wouldn’t have an Arabic partner.
So, what made you think to ask such a question, any point behind it apart from the obvious?
EELightningI thought the Hawk 200 had in built cannons?
I’ve not heard of any Hawk variant having built in Cannons before. Cannon pod on the central station, yes.
EELightningshould the UK get the Fulcrum instead?
Stop Trolling, Mr. Make up a New Name Every Month.
EELightningSorry I was under the impression this was a discussion forum – which means both parties may have differing views, it doesn’t mean yours is 100% right and mine is 100% wrong so making comments that I am narrow minded to me is completely and utterly out of order, as is being called silly.
I trust you will do the polite thing and apologise for these sort of comments when someone offers a different view to the one you hold.
They weren’t meant to be malicious, that isn’t my intention so apologies if you took them the wrong way.
Now the engines from the Jags may well be end of lifed, however surely an analysis as to the costs of relifing those engines rather than procuring additional assets would be worth evaluation.
I accept that the radar profile of the Sea Vixen may well not fit the Hawk fuselage, and that this may lead to a need to change the antenna with the reduction in range that this results in – however in my view that fits with the premise of this being a low end solution.
Fedaykin raised the point about the engine and the airframe, which ever way you put it it’s always going to be a subsonic airframe. He also raised the point about it’s A/A capabilities, additionally I’d also like to add it’s A/G capabilities. With the type of warfare we’ve seen during the past 12 years it’s noteworthy to take on board what the Hawk (in general) would be capable of, and I’m afraid to say not much. For the type of missions we see in the likes of Afghanistan, a Cannon is needed (or Rockets as was the Harrier’s case), a couple of external drop tanks, 2-3 types of Bombs – Paveway IV, Paveway II or a 1,000lb Dumb Bomb, a missile (Brimstone), a recce pod and a LDP, those are what we’ve become used to seeing.
What would a pair of Hawks have to operate with?… Excluding the wingtip stations the Hawk has 5 more stations free, 1 centre, 2 per wing. They’ll both need two tanks each for endurance, one will need a single LDP at least, the other a Cannon, that leaves them with just 4 stations between them for weapons. That’s pretty much the same as a single Harrier GR9. It’s not really a practical solution and that’s before we start discussing the enhancements needed for the weapons and pods.
The Hawk is a great and rather successful little aeroplane, but it’s a success story because of it’s training abilities, not it’s war fighting capabilities.
EELightningIt just proves that EF in 2003 was very basic aircraft and everything needed to added.
Yeah, and? So you’re changing your tone now are you? The F-16 was basic, so was the F-15, F/A-18, F-22 (still is), Mig-29, Flanker, Tornado, Rafale, Gripen so on and so forth.
Production will slow down and cost will increase is very obvious. it happens in every aircraft towards the tail end of production. See F-16 example.
Costs increases because aircraft are upgraded throughout their life. Costs decrease once aircraft are properly integrated into the air force, running costs, training of personnel be it in the industry, ground crew and air crew etc.
so F-35B procurement budget will come from some where else. you didnot see IHS report that India budget will be larger than UK in couple of years. and that budget is already tiny.
We’re not talking about India are we, they have nothing to do with this discussion. Once again, the UK’s 10 year defence plan which has a value of some �160 billion, �18+ billion of which will be spent towards air assets including the Typhoon ‘and’ F-35B, there’s nothing to suggest that anything will be diverted in favour of another. In addition, it’s self explanatory that the Typhoon’s upgrades and enhancements are funded.
Storm Shadow is old missile why you want to integrate that to aircraft that will serve for next 40 years?
Storm Shadow an old missile? It’s been in service since 2002… so by your definition Typhoon is an old aeroplane?… Why shouldn’t it be integrated?
why there is no requirement from begining? when you create such huge multinational programe. you want to make it as verstile as possible. Electronic warfare is most critical element of modern fighting.
Do you know what those pods are for on the Typhoon’s wingtips by any chance?…
see above you dont make an airplane for short term requirement. Naval Typhoon could gather alot more orders and engines with enhanced power could have surpassed F414 variant for Indian Naval LCA.
See my earlier post, I’m not going to repeat it again – in addition, realistically the market for a carrier aircraft is no where near significant to those of a land based aircraft, that’s where the market is. Countries looking for a carrier based aircraft are already committed to the F-35B, Rafale for France, Mig-29K for India, other’s won’t have access to Typhoon. So there’s no point in having a navalised Typhoon.
Its not big deal. considering light weight airframe with limited fuel capacity and not so so gigantic radar in nose. it is same old MIG-21 concept when radar and sensors will detect things at last moment and you need such takeoff.
What are you on about, limited fuel capacity, not so gigantic radar? What?
why it has to wait for some other aircraft for Meteor to be operational?
It’s not waiting for anything. As Swerve pointed out (thanks by the way, Swerve) the Meteor can be used for real if the need arised. As what has already been stated, Typhoon has AMRAAM at the moment and it ain’t going to be in service for much longer.
his posts are mere conjectures. not anything to do with reality. no one can make claim like best M scan radar etc.
It’s reality alright, what images and footage you seen are very real! What he claimed regarding the Captor is what professional pilots and experts claim. Of course, no one has to take their word for it.
EELightningBut as previously stated deploying a Hawk 200 variant must be cheaper than a pure Typhoon/f35 fleet and I dont see wht this aircraft would not be a useful resource for the asymmetric warfare that we have seen recently.
Options could include looking at installing radars from ex sea harrier fa2s into these aircraft (im hoping these werent just scrapped with the aircraft!) And if performance is a concern then surely the upgraded adours from the jag fleet could be re used.
Okay, here are some major flaws that should put this Hawk 200 thing to sleep. Installing a radar from the Harrier FA2, Blue Vixen, would be a technological nightmare! There’d be two options: 1) Completely redesign the entire nose and possibly the whole front fuselage section to accommodate the radar, very expensive! Or 2) Redesign the radar to make it fit into the Hawk 200 which would have issues all on it’s own, less range, less power, less capable. If costs are an important issue, then that idea is in the bin.
The upgraded Adours from the Jaguar fleet… Now you see… Those ‘used’ engines were near, or at, the end of their life when the aircraft retired in 2007. What kind of costs will arise in upgrading a kaput engine? It’s silly!
For the kind of asymmetric warfare you mention, you need a lot of fuel, range, endurance, a very good weapons load which needs to be versatile, the ability to get from A to B at such a short notice for CAS amongst other benefits. The Hawk is a great little aeroplane, it would make a very good COIN aircraft but what you’re asking of it is rather silly and optimistic, even narrow minded.
EELightningTwo pure fighters the F-22 Raptor with a Super Hornet 😀
I’d call the F-22 a pure fighter. The Super Hornet?… No…
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