A bit random but I am the sort of armchair general guy who says “what if?, why not?” and then draws a picture to illustrate what I mean. So, here is my line of thought as to the optimum expeditionary frigate/destroyer – somewhere between FREMM and Absalon, and actually with a RN weapons fit in mind.
Although BAE Sys would no doubt push for their products, I think that a OTO-Melara lightweight 127mm main gun with Volcano ammunition is the best choice. CIWS would be three 35mm Millennium guns (one forward, two aft).
Hangers would be on either side of the ship with an air-control room between them, and a medium sized Slyvr VLS capable of Aster-15/30 but mainly for Storm Shadow. SAM would be VL MICA.
Single integrated mast similar to Thales systems with multiple phased arrays including surface search. Single Sat uplink atop the mast (not Sampson).
Modest Ro-Ro/flex deck. Two 11m boats on flanks. Pop-up automatic 20mm guns forward of bridge.
On top there is a large flexible weapons deck similar to that on Absalon (but bigger). Whole range of weapons options and/or mission modules (removed via crane). Typical weapon here would be loiter attack drones (as per recent British test flight).
Powerplant as per Type-45 but exhaust between hulls to reduce IR sig and leave upper deck clear for max weapons/flex.
Obviously I’e never built a boat in my life so this is all guesswork 😉
As said, it’s a matter of perspective. Baseline for German ships is 360-degree RAM coverage supported by at least 270-degree gun coverage (main gun forward angle, medium-calibre side angles). Ships without RAM use Stinger teams instead, and in most cases have 360-degree gun coverage.
Which is pretty much why I ranked F-125 ahead of either LCS for air defenses. Absalon wins primarily because of the 36 ESSMs, but Absalon also has 360 degree CIWS coverage. And Stingers apparently but ot sure where they are mounted and I’d guess they are crewed.
The Mk110 (basically the Bofors Mk 3) is damn impressive with the advanced ammo and should make short work of any small boats threat.
A gun that isn’t fielded by any of the types is the OTO-Melara 76mm series. These now also have various advanced rounds similar to AHEAD and also a guided round (DART/Strales/DAVIDE) although yet to see evidence of a customer – but an excellent gun. In general medium guns are catching up with CIWS for air defense.
The F-125 is pretty disappointing with the 155mm gun and MRLS cut, and LACMs delayed. But I think the OTO-Melara 127mm gun is actually the right choice, because it too can fire Volcano.
You’re right about the US extended rounds being cancelled, real shame. That puts F-125 as number 1 for shore bombardment, with Absalon slipping to fourth. Not sure where that would put us but I think F-125 would draw with Absalon for 1st overall with LCS-2 only one point behind. However, I still would opt for Absalon over F-125, except I’d like to see LACMs and the OTO-Melara 127mm gun with Volcano.
Fritz, it’s evident you didn’t read past the passages you quoted. Read the lot before wanking all over the thread pls.
Kato, thanks for reading. 🙂
Re F-125… well the thing is I’m not evaluating them to the USN’s LCS spec, I’m evaluating them in general terms.
Re ERGM being cancelled – damn that does change things a bit. Poor Danes. The OTOMelara system does seem excellent.
Re CIWS I disagree…. the Mk110 57mm is essenially an anti-missile gun with the advanced fuses etcn . Again symantics as to “CIWS” vs “AAA” but in the context of the analysis it amounts to the same thing. the Absalon’s 35mm with AHEAD seem very impressive too.
SA-6 shooting down an F-117.
Aren’t there tales of Phalanx CIWS shooting down the same ship’s Sea Sparrow SAMs as they are launched? Sounds like an urban (um… deep sea?) legend but if it’s true that would count as a bizarre twist of fate.
Another curious one is the RN Sea Dart shooting down a hovering Argentinean Puma over Port Stanley airfield.
pls don’t knock someone for being too informative 😉
cheers everyone
Am I right in thinking the S-47 has 6 weapons bays?
Eurosam list Aster30 minimum engagement range as 3km. MBDA List the maximum engagement range of VL MICA as around 10km. .
They also quote the max altitude as 10km for VL_MICA which makes you wonder about the range …
Only correct answer allowed:
Nice trimaran design. Would this be your proposal for a future Chinese destroyer?
—–JT—–
sort of, proposal would be the wrong word. It’s designed around Chinese systems just because it stems from a discussion on SinoDefence forum. The design itself is heavily influenced by various European thinking (VosperT’s designs, FREEM/HORIZON etc). The hull is actually after a proposed French idea (BGV), but with a Chinese Type-022 “look” to the outrigger.
Hey, just found this on the BGV website, interesting designn for lightweight LCS type role:
As aircraft design moves towards radar stealth, twin fins (or better, no fins) are becoming more common as they can be canted inwards or outwards to reduce RCS from side, and eliminate corner-reflector effect you get with right-angle alignment of surfaces. This is a crude generalisation of course.
I don’t think the splinter pattern is “digital”. Or is it?
why the yawn? It is what it is.
Nobody in their right mind, would show off their best and most powerful weapons in a public parade.
During WW 2 , the Japanese built the world’s largest and most powerful battleship, the 70,000 ton Yamato in complete secrecy. Not even the Japanese civilians knew it even existed.
I disagree, at least to a large extent. There’s R&D stuff, and items that are too subtle for parades, but in general you want to show of your best kit. If a weapon has entered operational service then the “enemy” already knows of it. In the case of Russia, these parades serve as a deterrent to would-be adversaries (not just USA BTW), the message they want to send is Russia is still powerful and technologically formidable. Arms shows serve similar purposes.
The Russian fire depression system only works if the turret is ejected.