oh star49 is going off on his love of Irbis radar and the extremely mature Zhuk-MAE again. When will he stop?

Anyhow, I put my thoughts on the socalled pirated J-11B in my recent log. If you are too lazy two read then.
1. they are not exporting J-11B to anyone despite the Russian hysteria
2. it’s not called pirating when you got full ToT + haven’t exceeded the # of license you paid for.

Is this the same level of improvement they have demonstrated in say, light truck tires, dog food and childrens toys?

alright, let’s clear this up, since I’m pretty much sick of this kind of comments in light of the recent China bashing.

USA imports more from China than anyone else in the world. In terms of %, the amount of failed products from China is actually lower than other countries. It just happens when you export such a huge volume, you are going to get a larger absolute amount that’s going to fail.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IG18Cb01.html
“A recent New York Times report, citing US Food and Drug Administration data, showed that China was far from alone in exporting goods of poor quality and was not the worst offender. For example, while seafood from China was impounded 391 times last year, produce from the Dominican Republic was seized 817 times and candy from Denmark 520 times. India and Mexico also compared unfavorably with China. Nevertheless, the common perception in the US and elsewhere is that China is the chief perpetrator of export fraud and danger. “

And secondly, when the importers are looking for the cheapest deal in China from small/unlicensed companies. Why are they so surprised when these guys produce subpar products? Why isn’t Mattel taking blame for this?

Facetiousness aside, I would point out that…

A. You have provided no evidence of dramatic improvements in the civil shipbuilding sector.

get bloomberg or reuters + read what the South Koreans/Japanese have to say.

B. Such improvements in no way imply improvements in the military shipbuilding sector.

The same shipyards that uses modern technology to build civilian ships to Western standard of quality will be doing so for military ships. And from all I have read, the latest 052B/C are built to higher quality than the Sovs.

The Pakistani ships are directly descended from previous Chinese domestic and export frigate classes and share many of the same fundamental design features. Even if quality control had been improved the inherent weaknesses of these designs remain and the limited combat power is self-evident. Let’s face it, no one is buying Chinese military hardware because it is the best built and most state of the art. They buy because its cheap and the Chinese will sell to just about anyone.

my comments were not aimed at F-22P, but your downplay of China shipbuilding sector in general.

Yeah actually, it is a couple of decades behind. The obvious stealth features are no more radical than what was being done in the late 1980’s and certainly well behind what would be considered acceptable in current western design.

Chinese frigates for export are notorious for quality control issues and light and flimsy construction. The Thai frigates for example have severe restrictions on firing their 5-inch guns due to problems with hull cracking and buckling. Damage control features are nothing to write home about.

The superstructure on these Pakistani frigates is surprisingly compact which means restricted internal volume for useful things like command and control electronics. Whatever combat system is fitted is likely to be based on a Chinese copy of the 80’s-vintage TAVITAC, itself a growth item from the 1970’s-vintage Vega FCS. The search/TI radar looks like Sea Tiger – hardly state of the art.

Propulsion is obviously diesel with little apparent effort to reduce IR signatures. Don’t expect these ships to be particularly fast or quiet.

The armament is your basic light patrol frigate fair, perfectly adequate for presence missions but offering limited real offensive or defensive firepower. Vertical launch for self-defense missiles has been the norm for 2 decades yet these ships will apparently still rely on the trainable, single-channel Crotale clone. Do I need to point out this weapon dates back to about 1971? The CIWS setup is interesting, apparently being the new 30mm type but without on-mount fire control. That means the two guns share a director making for one, rather than 2 fire control channels. ASW torpedo tubes I presume are concealed behind the hatches in the hull aft, which means they are old-fashioned trainable lightweight tubes, possibly without reloads.

Again, overall there is nothing to be impressed with here.

you are basing your theory on something China built in the early 90s? Chinese shipbuilding quality has gone up a lot in the decade and half. There is a reason Thailand ordered OPVs from China after F-25Ts.

why not the Typhoon or the Rafale ? that internet rumor of active cancellation apart, there is nothing spectacular about the Rafale’s RCS reduction features. same goes for Typhoon which can hide its compressor faces, but apart from that, only have some RAM treatment. I’ve seen some of the slides from Eurofighter’s presentation for Norway and they were trying to downplay the fact that they did not feature stealth. and some types of composites are less radar reflective than metals/alloys. couple that with what is a small airframe and a shielded compressor face, and the canopy treatment and you’ll get a tiny RCS.

dude, have you taken a look at pictures of Rafale from frontal view? Just look at it, it’s extremely stealthy for a non-stealth fighter. Sometimes, looking at the shape helps? Also think about this, they intentionally reduced the range of RBE-2 to make it give off less RF. The French clearly emphasized stealthiness in their design.

Block 60 is pretty small, it uses an AESA radar, has gold tainted canopy, RAM on the surface + uses composite, so according to you, that would make it very stealthy.

since when did the JF-17 get “in service” ? besides, the FC-1 is a generation behind the Tejas in terms of technologies, so its easier to get its certification complete for a country like China that has developed aircraft in the past. Pakistan is not the country responsible for the certification of the FC-1; all it needs to do is fund the program and depute some engineers to oversee the program development.

you know JF-17 has already achieved all of its flight requirements right? Tejas may have higher requirements, but it has yet to get there in the testing. The first squadron of JF-17 is said to be ready by the end of the year.

Brigade 813’s DF-31 launch sites identified:

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/03/chinese-df-31-launch-sites.html

hey Sean, i think after that entry, Chinese gov’t might permanently deny GE access over its border.

why they have to put up with diesel SSK when there main task is atomic and now even more atomic since they want to explore Arctic. and Russia certianly export 3 Kilo to Iran & 8 to India. plenty of export experiance.

I’m not sure what you are talkin about here.

It is unique interms of capability. Just think over it. and Russia like contract in early 2004 but not in 2007. they did the same way with Noraway. Chemical tankers will be built and will be sold at Market price to highest bidder. Dont try to automatically apply worldwide business practices to Russia.

right, the Russians don’t know how to do business in a civilized manner. There is nothing that Adm G has that better carriers don’t have. Which goes back to the original topic that Vik is a rip-off.

No u cant. thats why all Civillian airlines in the world are Chinese made along with all VW cars from past 20 years?

what does that have to do with it? The Chinese shipbuilding industry is light years ahead of its aerospace and auto industry. The carrier project has already started and we will probably see photos coming out of Shanghai in a couple of years and it will be ready by the time Chinese naval flankers are ready.

definitely offered? and 2005 was 3 years ago. here things changes with in days.

the Russians are only offering more goodies now than they did before. You think they offered su-35s 3 years ago?

Nope. 1 export Yuan will be cheaper than 1 domestic going by other export stuff. i can even say that China will offer generaous export loans with flexible payments.

yeah, that’s because it’s making so much money on these exports. The J-10 avionics designer actually told everyone that the J-10 exported to pakistan will be 50% more expensive than the domestic ones. You clearly have no idea how cheaply China is building its fleet right now.

They are not reiventing the same wheel. They are going into different generation.

The current generation of gas turbine developed in China actually has better numbers than the Ukrainian ones if you ever checked them out.

link please and purpose? Bought by first class service company to power or some poor who cannot afford nothing else.

from the official avic1 website
http://www.avic1.com.cn/chinese/xwzx/detail/20080104_9.htm

they are certainly not more capable than Kilo. All 8 Kilos were devilvered in 4 years after contract. Can u show any nation in the world who can do this?. And that was pretty busy time. As they were dealing with Indian and there own submarines orders. how is FC-1/J-10 quantity going?

China, do you know how fast they built those Songs/Yuans? And while doing this, they were also flooded with commercial+ other military orders. Why do you think they are not putting any more order for Kilos/Amurs and just continuously building more Yuan now? We are talking about ships, not aircrafts. If you want to talk about that, open a thread in the aircraft section and we will talk about it there.

So do u think it is retail industry that customer service matter. These are unique products not available any where else at this price.

what unique product? Explain what’s so unique about Adm G or Kilos or anything else. If you think the price is too low, mark it higher. What kind of business practice is it to trick people into signing low prices and then blackmail into paying higher prices?

U learn from carrier when u actually operate it. Not just park it and observe. I doubt China can operationally got a carrier in next 20 years.

there is a difference between operate and build. By studying the structure of a carrier, you learn a lot that can help you to build your own carrier.

Again more nonsense. U cannot even compete in diesel submarines let alone SSBN. How many ICBMs/SLBM with u have operational?. how many test launches per year?. Russians built whole science behind Gas turbines and built factoreis in several republics. ever thought about Siemens & Power machinese. why do u think Reanult/Nissan was after Autovaz at any price?
They are in now whole different level.

diesel subs? We are not buying anything from the Russians anymore, get that through your head. If your diesel subs were any good, we would placed an order for Amur buy now. Now, do you really think we fancy those Akulas? Why keep on making test launches? Is China trying to give US even more ammunition for China threat argument?
As for gas turbine, you’ve basically built one gas turbine after the break up. And you are boasting about that? Ukraine still has you dominated.

so next u will be start claiming that China has start building Single engine J-10/FC-1 and no single fighter is currently built in Russia so only China knows Single engine fighter.

what the heck are you talking about? I never said anything about other countries not being able to build gas turbine. Where did I say only China knows how to build gas turbine? You got some serious issues with Asian technology, just pointing you out that these backward Asians are building gas turbines, yet Russia is still depending on the Ukrainians.

Proven to have software problems? :rolleyes: What’s the fetish here with AESA, some people would even argue a PESA with higher range would be more effective.

except those problems have been fixed now. You know, that’s part of the maturing process that Zhuk-AE haven’t gone through yet.

And there is the real issue of the Russians having to set up a plan that can cheaply mass produce tens of thousands of T/R modules a year. Let’s see that factory get off the ground first.

The Zhuk-MF was tested on the MiG-29, which means if needed, it can be fitted to the jet. No one ordered it. Two separate concepts.

Stop fussing about an irrelevant typo. I don’t re-read my posts here and I do not live on this forum like you do. It’s pretty obvious “E” is “Eksporynaya” for just about every piece of Russian equipment.

You think you know more than you really do, being an American ignorant fanboy who can only see straight ahead like a horse pulling a carriage.

so clearly SLL has been doing his research and I’m not sure we can say this about you. Maybe you should learn a little bit from him?