tphuangIndia could of purchase F-35B or F-35C to operate from the ADS Carriers. Which would offer a very capable counter to any Chinese Carrier and its Su-33’s! Interesting thought? Would the STOVL F-35B be more effect or the CV F-35C operating from India’s future carriers???
F-35Cs are obviously going to be better than F-35Bs. They are not restricted by the limitations put in as a stovl fighter. C should have better range and payload and generally, better flight performance.
tphuangVery interesting pictures, besides J10, what else did you see? 😀
according to the people on Chinese forum, the J-10B cockpit photos are not models of the cockpit of current J-10s, but rather earlier versions. The latest J-10 cockpit are said to be more advanced than the ones we see on JF-17.
tphuangThis pic is from the ceremony of the Taihang’s certification. (Or is it inauguration of its production). Unlike the engine featured in Zhuhai, if you look closely at the engine on the back, this one has the accessories on top.
Looks like there are indeed two versions of the engine.
nice, that debunks my theory for sure.
tphuangi don’t think so, J-11B has always been mentionned as joining late this year or possibly early next year. Until we see some kind of article or an operating regiment photo, it’s really not possible to know exactly when it is in service.
tphuangit is more speculation. the only reason will be if J-10 use updated avionic/weopon system compare to early 80s Flanker. I would take 1 Su-33 over 3 rafales.
it was versus su-30mkk, that’s not early 80s flanker.
these are not politicians. they are company officials. can toyota official make false claims regarding performance.
geez, now you trust corporate officials? I have far more respect for engineers who make comments than officials trying to sell product.
it may have cost extra money so they may want simpler radar. ZHUK-ME/Kopyo/MSE uses the same software and technlogy. so no reason to believe if one is ready the other will be not.
you are telling me China actually wanted the piece of junk aka N-001VEP instead of Zhuk-MSE?
why i put link. that manufacture MMIC. and what is meant by mass production. usually u need a few dozen radars for testing and few thousand modules.
right, why don’t you show me where in Russia you guys have plants with the capability of mass producing gallium arsenide chips. Show me how advanced the Russian semiconductor technology is.
why i has nothing to with the topic? I just showed other countries are even worse in fullfilling export contracts.
has nothing to do with su-33
when customer requirements are changed they have to change the schedule. there is nothing technical about it. it is objectives that was changed. now every thing is fixed untill 2009.
that’s not the only time that schedules get changed.
tphuangagain rumours and speculation. there is a reason F-22/F-15/MIG-31/Su-27 are for intereception. Large fighters impart greater speed and range to BVR missile. and it is the first shoot at greater distance is the advantage. and how Flankers is not high. china has the highest number of Flankers. just fuel and training pilots for them will cost alot of money.
hmm, they interviewed with the people that were watching the military exercises between flankers and J-10. Flankers were getting hammered. Whether you believe it or not will not change the fact. Again, I don’t want to turn this into J-10 vs flanker thread. I’m telling you that if China could get Rafale instead of su-33, it would. In fact, I think I would take 1 Rafale over 2 su-33s.
there is big difference between private claims and official claims. these officials cannot say things which they cannot fullfil.
Are you even listening to yourself? Politicians don’t lie now?
how is russia radar promise spotty?. compared to what? it took 7 years for F-16E/M2K9 contract to fullfill after signing. ur is just rumours and speculation.
huh? the good old Zhuk-MSE. That really was helpful. Remember when it was suppose to be ready? And notice who it never got on any mkk?
how is that believing that they will have the technology for MIG-35.
again, it’s not the radar itself, it’s the components for the radar that’s the problem. Where do you have a Russian plant that is mass producing T/R modules?
so why it is negative point. u tried to turn into it.
because I’m tired of you bringing stuff into the argument that has nothing to do with the topic.
where is the problem with M1? it was the change of design objectives thats why it took so long. so it be fitted to present ruaf flankers without modification and training of maintainance crew (complexity). now design path is freeze upto M5. only certification is left.
that’s what you think. Are you the project manager now? I mean have you ever worked before? How often do you think engineering project have to make changes in the middle and then take longer than they should.
tphuangRussia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion
// Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?
China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia’s ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.
This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by Kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China’s National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan’s Aviation Integrated Company, Israel’s IAI, and Russia’s OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.
China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. “Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible,” said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.
However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with “Sea Snake” targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr (“Bison”) hydroplane boats (around $210 million).
The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.
Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. “Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia’s] multibillion dollar contracts with India,” believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. “However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China.” In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.
Link
hmm, WS-13 will be ready very soon. The only sides that looses out on this will be the PAF and Klimov. The thing is China has only paid for the engines that got delivered so far (according to Kanwa’s interview with Klimov). If PAF is not getting any JF-17, then China is in no quick hurry to get more RD-93s. Meaning, Klimov would be lucky to get a chance to sell the 100 engines that it initially thought it was on order for. And that 500 engines, even more of a pipe dream now. Seriously, this might delay PAF’s induction of JF-17 by 2 years, that’s it. And in the mean time, PAF will probably send more pilots to China for training and more engineers to CAC for weapon integrations and such. Winner out of this? Lab 606 that produces WS-13.
If PAF really starts to complain to China, then they might just get J-10s earlier from CAC as a reward or something like that. (which will actually work out better for PAF) We know WS-10A is already in mass production, so that’s not a problem.
tphuangIt costs about $45 million to $60 million per unit, while one F-15K is valued at about $105 million.
this just makes you wonder if the guy who wrote this article has any idea what he is talking about. F-15K is more like 55 million each unit that became 80 million after the package was included. F-35 will definitely cost more.
tphuangPlease delete this.
tphuangfirst. Mig-23 and F-16 and does not belong to same generation and if u upgrade Mig-23 with AL-31 and decent radar there wont be much a difference in BVR fight. Flanker being a heavier platform will tend to give higher energy to BVR missile and hence greater speed and range to a BVR missile. the only thing is Su-30MK does not have the FBW system of MKI.
Again, there have been engagements and results have come out, well stated, J-10 repeatedly whips flankers. Whether you think it is possible or not does not deny that it has happened. I don’t want this to turn into another J-10 vs flankers, so I’m just telling you that Chinese opinions toward flankers is not very high and Rafale would be much preferred.
It effects the reputation of every export product as Radar goes into almost every thing from SAMs to helis.
yes, but they still do make claims anyways, that’s what salespeople do. Do you believe in everything that a salesperson tells you?
so do u think they dont have a factory for producing for MMIC. and make paper based claims of transferring AESA tech (which will include factory) to India for MIG-35.
there wasnt any report of BARs export to China which is the best radar for Flanker for now. the rest are more or less equal.
yes, they believe that they will have the technology when they start delivering mig-35, but the Russian radar promises in the past have been pretty spotty to say the least. China has learnt its lessons with Zhuk-MSE (and that’s not a technology leap like AESA radar is). So what if BARS isn’t exported? Let me repeat. China does not fancy Russian airborne radars.
i didnt start this.
what do you call this then?
” and China is bit conservative the IL-76 are powred by D-30 while civilian Volga airline and IAF ordered PS-90.”
I did not mention IL-76 at all before then.
First flight was done in 2002. but have u follow the news after that?. they have to make changes to it so it can fit into ruaf flanker without any modification.
the first MI has 13,300kg thrust with 500 MTBO but now it is 1000hr and 13,500kg. and any way export customer has to evaluate the engine for 1 to 2 years before they sign for it. so alteast those parameters are achieved around 2004. for any export contract in 2005.
3rd quarter of 2002 and second quarter of 2003 is less than a year unless original objectives change.
So what? The point is that the news about M1 taking flight came as early as 2002 and then we waited until this month for it to be certified. And even now, has there been any in service flankers fitted with M1?
So, what’s to say there won’t be problem in the development path of M4?
tphuangtwo non-stealth fighters with one bigger and one smaller how can smaller one more capable than the larger one.? the only thing against larger fighter is cost of training and maintaining.
so are you saying Mig-23 is more capable than F-16? Size isn’t the only factor. Again, J-10 vs flankers results are well known in China, just check it up.
alteast they are making claims to outside world to verify.
And if they are wrong, what is the outside world going to do?
from where this information comes from? It is not about technological base it is about money and market. they have enough skills to build everything including smart chips.most important part Software development for radar.
Let’s see them build a factory capable of producing the parts then. PLAAF does not fancy any Russian radar, check it up.
u brought IL-76 to show inability of building it. which country can deliver export product with in a year or so.
No, you mentionned IL-76 first, go back in the post and check it up.
I have checked back. Salyut was not a full fledge design bureau and they started the whole thing on there own and did it successfully within 3 years.
hmm, I was pretty sure the news about FM1 was coming out in 2002.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2003/12/02/174568/NPO+Saturn+submits+new+fighter+engine+for+tests.html
I don’t see how 2006-2002 is 3?
In 2002, Salyut began flight tests of an improved version of the AL-31F-M1, with an enlarged fan, also using an Su-27. This year the aircraft was fitted with two Salyut engines equipped with Klimov-developed vectored-thrust swivelling nozzles (the NPO Saturn AL-31PFs powering Indian Su-30MKIs feature nozzle deflection in a single plane). Salyut’s engine is aimed at single-engined aircraft such as the Chinese J-10 fighter, the first production lot of which is powered by the Salyut-built AL-31FN, a special derivative of the basic AL-31F with the engine accessories box moved from above to below the engine’s main body.
tphuangAt which part of your three step cycle is the WS-10 in your opinion? When I understand you correctly, it is still ten years away from regular service?!
It’s at the end of the third step, they’ve already ramping up the production.
tphuangand from where this information coming from. the high oil prices from 2004 have nothing to do with large twin engine fighters.sells. the AL-31F-M1 going to Ruaf has 30% cost savings.
where did I mention oil price or anything. Go to any Chinese forum. Almost everyone knows about the results of J-10 vs flankers.
that was NIIP product. they claim there PESA is as good as Ist generation AESA. they are going into 2nd generation AESA straight. and news i posted is for NIIR.
Again, people can make a whole bunch of claims. That’s what the salespeople do.
what is meant by that. first there should be order for production.
If you don’t have the technological base to mass produce the T/R modules, it’s kind of hard to mass produce AESA radars.
u brought this that they cant built IL-76. it was triparty agreement where one party cant fullfill.
well, let’s see if they can fill now, but China is pretty pissed. Going back to the original, what did your original stuff on IL-76 have anyhting to do with su-33?
the timeline i posted is certification time line not some development time line. only AL-41 from saturn needs development.
yes, and FM4 is not certified. Should I believe every claim that the Russians make about when their stuff is certified. You might want to check back on when they claimed FM1 would be certified.
tphuangfrom where it comes from that Su-30MK is less capable than J-10?. may be some avionics. capability is directly proportional to range, payload, radar size, weopon station strenght etc.
there is certain country in africa where France has pushed hard its rafale but there is favourite is Flanker. and i am not even discussing something exotic like Su-35BM.
read some of my past posts on flankers vs J-10s. I’d rather not waste my time with that again. Flankers are definitely not looked as highly as the eurocanards in China. Whether you choose to believe it or not is a different story.
unless it is offered for export and some independent party verify it. no one believes in such claims.
and I should believe in some product that has only shown as a mini-prototype?
[quote]
Russia aesa is for export starting with MIG-35
[/qoute]
Let’s see them show the capability of mass producing T/R modules.
Ground based Nebo SVU as shown to argentinian.
who cares about SVU? Why are you bringing systems that have nothing to do with su-33? Do you just proof your points by posting a billion Russian articles quoting the export companies?
cheaper version can only be produced in low wage country like Uzbekistan to make some profit out of it.the other plants are busy with high margin products.
again, I have no idea what this has to do with su-33?
AL-31F-M4 will not be on Su-33 not because it want be ready. there is big difference by just producing thrust and actual certification. they have already produced thrust a decade ago with AL-41 they are only in certification stage. and there is another engine 117S from Saturn that is going into Su-35 from next year.
wow, you finally get it. FM4 is not certified. FM1 is just certified. You see, PLAN is not going to equip its fighters with engines that are not certified.
tphuangNo export customer is going to chose Rafale/F-18E even for air force let alone for an aircraft carrier. these navies dont have choice they have to live with these limited aircraft.
no, it’s China that has no choice, so it’s getting su-33. If Rafale is available, China would take it over su-33 in a heart beat. Flankers are regarded as less capable than J-10 within China and J-10 is regarded as less capable than Rafale.
so they are claiming most advance AESA without actually building it?
China claimed KJ-2000 is the most advanced AWACS in the world, are you going to believe that? There is a difference between the capability of building a few and having the plants to producing T/R modules cheaply for mass production.
and China is bit conservative the IL-76 are powred by D-30 while civilian Volga airline and IAF ordered PS-90.
I don’t see how this has anything to do with this discussion. And you may have noticed that the Russians are having a hard time producing these IL-76s.
this is AL-31F-M2
this one corresponds to AL-31F-M5
Russians can make claims about when their engines going to come out as much as they want, but as long as it is not out, it’s not out. Do you want to bet with me that AL-31F-M4 is going on Su-33 of PLAN? You know what’s claimed on Chinese forums? They’ve managed to achieve T/W ratio of 9 with upgraded versions of Taihong (around 16KG of thrust). But it’s not certified, so it’s not ready to equip any fighters.
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