plawolfWasn’t the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait claimed to be an internal matter; the returning of a breakaway section of the country back into the bosom of its motherland…?
Whatever happened to Saddam Hussain?;)Flood.™
and people here still dont get how significant a single word can be. :rolleyes:
kuwait declared formal independence, thats why the world could form a solid anti-iraq coalition. because iraq’s actions broke the UN’s rules.
taiwan hasnt decleared formal independence, nor has there been any formal peace treaties between taiwan and china from their civil war (will there is a mutual understanding that open hostilies are over, but nothing written on paper). that mains if china or taiwan attack each other, they technocally haven broken any international laws. and thats a get out clause for anyone and everyone (governments) who doesnt want a war with the world’s most populous nation over a island that few of their people neither knows or cares about that much.
sure the western people are generous and rightous in nature (as all all peoples), however their governments need to think about whats in the best interest of themselves and their nation as well. and in the international world, true generocity is a very rare commodity and easily exhaused if being ‘generous’ involves lossing money, or more importantly, loosing lives.
most governments will condamn china is it invades taiwan and will probably put up limited sanctions, but those will mostly be for show to tell its people that it is doing something to ‘try’ and stop what is happening. dont expect too many countires to be willing to fight china.
and i’m not being overly cynical either. look at iraq. no-one was going to fight the US over iraq, obviously. but no-one in the end had the will to veto the UN bill that ultimately gave the US the excuse it needed to start its invasion.
plawolfplawolf,
Give me a break on the Iraq War what’s right and wrong business. I’m not in the government, and I didn’t order our troops into that country so don’t you dare lecture me on things that aren’t even in my control.Mentioning the Iraq war is simply something you are doing to try and avoid my question, or request rather.
Give me a good reason that China has to invade Taiwan….
i have given you plenty of reasons why china would invade taiwan if taiwan decleared independence. yet you have so far given me zero reasoning as to why the world would sacrfic so much to help a wanabe-nation fight a battle that it started
You think the world is going to view a Chinese invasion of China as something that Taiwan…the much smaller party involved……is reponsible for??
Your only “reasons” boil down to the fact that the PRC wants to save face, and show the world they are tough, and that a “renegade” place like Taiwan will not be tolerated.
Do you actually believe that if China invaded Taiwan that everyone in the West (and the East for that matter) would turn away and pretend it never happened?
You’re smarter than that I hope….
Since you refuse to acknowledge my other request here’s another one for ya….
Explain to me how China would benefit from an invasion of Taiwan….
Afterall the world is going to pretend like it never happened right?
“Give me a good reason that China has to invade Taiwan….”
go back and read all my posts and you will find plenty of good reasons.
china doesnt have to invade taiwan just for the sake of it, but china will invade if taiwan moves towards formal independence.
“You think the world is going to view a Chinese invasion of China as something that Taiwan…the much smaller party involved……is reponsible for??”
‘oh taiwan cant possibly be the one responsible, cos…well… they are smaller arent they.’ what kind of reasoning is that? :rolleyes:
give me a break! taiwan’s leaders know they cant win be themselves, thats why they been trying every trick in the book and some more to tie themselves to the US to get america to fight its war for them. why else do you think the US gov was getting so p!ssed off with CSB recently? :rolleyes:
“Your only “reasons” boil down to the fact that the PRC wants to save face, and show the world they are tough, and that a “renegade” place like Taiwan will not be tolerated.”
:rolleyes: dont tell me you have set up mental blocks to ‘filter’ out the info you dont like. the reasons are many, security, stability, social, political…
“Do you actually believe that if China invaded Taiwan that everyone in the West (and the East for that matter) would turn away and pretend it never happened?”
that would depend on the cercumstances. dont tell me you honestly believe anyone would jump to fight china over taiwan no matter what the details that started the conflict are. :rolleyes:
“Explain to me how China would benefit from an invasion of Taiwan….”
how many times do i have to say this? :rolleyes: china doesnt have much to gain from invading taiwan, nor does it want to. however it will never accept taiwan declearing formal independence and will invade to stop it.
plawolfRight…right…whatever you say, plawolf. Mind you, you could try answering one of them instead of emabarking on a critique of the questions themselves as a diversionary tactic.
BTW – what’s Mandarin for “smug git”? 😎
just because the answers i’ve given you arent the ones you were hoping for doesnt mean i havent answered your questions.
go back and re-read all my posts for a change and maybe you will get a better picture.
plawolfAnyway, next year I intend to take courses on Chinese history, so forgive me plawolf if it all sounds a bit too simplistic, but it’s more due ignorance than bad will 😀 But always nice to know there are more historians (and not only technicians) on the forum apart from me and Arthur (I’m just a trainy though).
good for you!
i have always liked history but still shyed away from a full degree because…well chinese modern chinese history is far too sugar coated and have too many holes to be worth investing that much time in, and western versons of modern chinese history is kinda like the reverse. 🙁
thats why i like reading ‘none-modern’ history better (but still only in my spare time tho 🙁 ). the people who research them today have fewer personal connections with the people and events invovled, so tend to be more objective and there is a better chance of actually finding out waht really happened.
plawolfI learned to beware of people who believe they have all of the answers, plawolf……… 😀
when did i say i have all the answers? :rolleyes: its just that your questions are too simple and your ‘jabs’ are a little off the mark. 😀 :p
plawolfPlawolf- If you had continued with the basic idea that China is only worried about its security in the region and didnt want Taiwan becoming a base for foriegn powers, I could accept that. But in the past youve tipped your hand by saying alot of stuff about how China should control Taiwan. But lets forget that and address what youre saying now:
This is reasonable and I think something can be worked out if all thats at stake is regional security. You keep saying that its Taiwan thats at fault by wanting to declare independence and its not about reunification. Taiwan is clearly afraid of China and that is the sole purpose of its military. For you to try to throw the blame on Taiwan trying to become some kind of undermining mini power in the region just isnt going to work. Noone really cares if Taiwan calls themselves independent, their economy funtions just fine as though they were a independent nation. But for you to insist that “if Taiwan merely says the word independence, we will be at war with them” as some kind of face saving show of strength. Well the world looks apon Taiwan as a good citizen and neighbor. The fact that the Chineese say they are the same people ethnically does not justify that type of hostilitys. The whole world went to fight for one tiny nation of Kuwait to keep stability in that region, they could do the same in the far east. Were not living in the 1940s anymore, these are the rules the world plays by now. So if you think what Im saying is saber rattleing, there will be plenty of nations willing to watch you blink. And even though the world is heavily invested in China, the fact is China is replaceable. Chinas economy is still dependant on doing labor for foriegn companys, and has very little industry on which to stand on its own (Im sure that will change in the future though).
ok, now you are not only misquoting me, but also contradicting yourself.
first of all, i never said china should control taiwan by going to war with it now. i did say that had the US not interfered, china would control taiwan today, and that china is in its rights to take taiwan should it chooses. (refer to above posts for reasoning).
secondly, if you can accept that while taiwan is a ‘de facto’ independent state today, but the taiwanese government still can only affect mainly internal policy (trade is the excpet, but even that is mainly done in the private sector) and has little power on foeign affairs. then how can you not understand that significance of a ‘mere’ decleration of independence? currently few would acknowledge taiwan as an independent state for fear of upsetting china. if taiwan ‘declear’ independence and china does nothing about it, then no-one is going to give a sh!t anymore, hence taiwan would gain the fully range of foreign policy of a truely independent nation, such as signing a mutal defence treaty with other nations and ‘inviting’ the US to base its troops there. then taiwan will effectively become an unsinkable US carrier permenantly parked 100 miles off the heart of china. and that is simply unacceptable to china.
“Taiwan is clearly afraid of China and that is the sole purpose of its military. For you to try to throw the blame on Taiwan trying to become some kind of undermining mini power in the region just isnt going to work.”
clearly the view of someone who knows little about taiwan’s recent weapons purchase trends.
that might have been true 15 yeas ago, but it is no the case today, or even ten years ago. taiwan bought its F16s and M2Ks when its ‘presidient’ LDH got into office. at the time,the PLAAF only had J8s and J7s and no flankers, and so posed little threat to taiwan’s original force of F5s and F104s.
the reason for their purchase quickly became apparent when LDH started to thrown out his ‘two chinas’ theories – that was to gain independence by means of force.
only after this did the chinese government start to invest billions upon billions moderising its forces. and taiwan suddenly realised it had gotten itself in an arms race it cant possibly win, that is why its leaders are pushing for independence now, cos it wont be able to gain it by force soon.
“The whole world went to fight for one tiny nation of Kuwait to keep stability in that region, they could do the same in the far east. Were not living in the 1940s anymore, these are the rules the world plays by now. “
and since when has taiwan been on top of the world’s biggest oilfeild? :rolleyes:
right now china is much much more valueble to the world then taiwan.
“And even though the world is heavily invested in China, the fact is China is replaceable. Chinas economy is still dependant on doing labor for foriegn companys, and has very little industry on which to stand on its own (Im sure that will change in the future though).”
lol. you go and try replace china. :rolleyes: china has been cometing one equal (and often unfavourable) terms with the rest of the world for decades. if there is another nation that can produce the amount of goods china produces, at the quality china produces them and at the price china can produce them, all your shops wouldnt be filled with chinese goods. china has now become the factory of the world, and thats a fact.
can the world live without china? of course! but will be world not change if china was taken out of the international market? what do you think? :rolleyes:
and your talk of ‘having little industry to stand on its own’ is really laughable. china, not enough industries, yeah, right. the main problem china might face if cut off from the rest of the world is too much goods and too few consumers.:rolleyes:
plawolfdoes anyone have any info on what these ‘xw41’ missiles are? they look alot like the redbird cruise missile we saw a while back.
plawolfin regrad to those new missile tubes on the 170(?), could this be the missile inside the tube?
plawolfActually, the MA in Politics and Modern History helped a little bit as well.
But thank you for explaining what all those big, hard, words mean to this unfortunate gweilu nevertheless.
The PRC is ruled by an undemocratic and repressive regime – you can play semantics and twist words until Hell freezes over, but that fact remains.
hmm, and how much of that degree was based on china and how many history books written by none-westerners have you read? unless you have actually been there to see the facts for yourself, what you read in books about something as contravertial as history cant be taken at face value. i would have thought that someone who has taken an MA in modern history would have realised that.:rolleyes:
hell, even the ‘history’ of yesterday comes in a dozon versons even in the west, go out and read all the different papers and you might be amazed at just how many different conclusions are drawn from the same set of facts (sometimes even those ‘facts’ vary).
the only thing truely ‘concrete’ about history books are the dates and events. and often even those turn out to be inaccurate. all the conclisions are just the views of the one person who wrote that book. but i guess that pattern would have been more apprent had you done ancient history as well.
i have read history books written on the same even by chinese and western authors, and there are some interesting and often amusing differences and omissions about how the same event is discribed, and it doesnt take a genious to figure out that the anthors all had their different agendas dispite claiming to be ‘nutural’.
i dont know what you learnt in that modern history MA, but i truely hope it was about trying to show people just how distorted history can because when recorded through the eyes of men, instead of just about remebering dates and events and memorising the conclusions of the people who complied the facts.
plawolfI’m sorry but you still fail to grasp the generational gap. I grew up in a Korean community and have been to the country several times.. what you’ve described mostly reflects on the older generation. To put it simply..the younger generation cares less about Japan or China in general and hates the US the most.. however if it was between Japan and China.. I guarantee you that they would actually like China the least in comparison with Japan. There are quite a bit who are anti-Chinese. Furthermore, even the older generation that is anti-Japanese will tend to agree that China has the potential to be a much worser “threat” to them than Japan at the moment. The younger generation also feels similarly as they’ve grew up beyond the anti-Japanese era, and into an era where japan is unlikely to be a threat..but China is, especially with a strong economy, military and numerous border and historical claims.
ultimately, I think it’ll be hard for either you or me to really prove who hates who more unless we both go out and do some mass survey together..
but here are some pages in regards to anti-Chinese views in Koreahttp://partypooper.blog-city.com/read/325899.htm
http://www.rieti.go.jp/users/michael-yoo/cfk-en/01.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001848568_koguryo01.html
well its not like i picked up me views just from websites either. i have a number of south korean friends who really suprised when i first met them with just how much they disliked, even dispised the japanese, and they were suprisingly friendly to me considering the fact that china fought against SK in the korean war. (and its not like these koreans were old either, most are just in their late teens and early twenties).
with a large group of people there will always be groups that hold different groups within it that group, but it seems straige to have such a different spectrim.
plawolfLet me get this straight…….China attacks Taiwan for declaring independence and Taiwan is the one at fault?
Pardon me, but that just doesn’t make much logical sense.
Whether you like it or not, plawolf, if China invades Taiwan it will be the PRC who’s on everyone’s radar screen as the agressor, not Taiwan.
How much international condemnation? Well you can expect at least as much as the United States has had over the war with Iraq, and that will be minor compared to any conflict between China and Taiwan.
If Taiwan declares independence, China will not invade because they will not only never gain control of Taiwan, but they will lose everything they’ve worked so hard to achieve.
Give me a good reason China has to invade Taiwan?
Sounds to me like they want to do it just to save face and prove that Taiwan was never a de facto country anyway.
“Let me get this straight…….China attacks Taiwan for declaring independence and Taiwan is the one at fault?”
yes. well it certainly makes alot more sense the the US invading iraq for suposidly having a fraction the types of weapons that the US has stockpiled by the tons.
dont be short sighted and only look at the here and now. the taiwan situation resulted because the US interfered in china’s civial war. the only reason china did take taiwan was because the US parked its pacific fleet in the straits.
as a result, no peace treaties were ever signed. technocally either side can restart the conflict and it wouldnt be against any international laws. and thats why taiwan never decleared independence. the nationalists wanted to retake the mainland with US help, but that was never going to happen.
regardless of the reasoning, both sides originally agreed that both taiwan and china were part of the same nation that should be reunified. that was the foundation for dialog and the ceasing of hostilities between the two. in effect, it is the foundation on which a peace treaty between the two sides in a civil war were written upon. if taiwan declears independence, then it would have riped up the foundation on which cross strait relations have been built, and so it effect, ripping up the peace treaty and both sides can, technically, continue where they left off decades ago.
but then i guess it makes the job of the polititions alot easier if the general public didnt know these details.
‘taiwan is a ‘de faco’ independent nation, guess it must have always been an independent nation, arent those chinese evil for trying to take over an independent nation…’ :rolleyes:
“If Taiwan declares independence, China will not invade because they will not only never gain control of Taiwan, but they will lose everything they’ve worked so hard to achieve.
Give me a good reason China has to invade Taiwan?
Sounds to me like they want to do it just to save face and prove that Taiwan was never a de facto country anyway.”
‘bla bla bla…china will never invade taiwan cos i say so…’ :rolleyes:
i have given you plenty of reasons why china would invade taiwan if taiwan decleared independence. yet you have so far given me zero reasoning as to why the world would sacrfic so much to help a wanabe-nation fight a battle that it started.
and dont preach to me about the eternal goodwill and sense of justice of the western governments. we all seen how far that goodwill and sense of justice went when the US bribed and extorted and bullied the western world to give it the authority to fight a war that everyone with half a brain knew was unjustified and against international laws.
plawolfcool, looks like more pics of the twin seater. nice find.
as for china’s thoughts on the A50. well IIRC, the deal never went ahead. it was discussed but appears to have not materialised, and with the chinese AWACSs flying around, i really dont think there is much chance of the deal going through now.
edited for clarity.
plawolfWhy is only a part and not the entire canopy darkened? :confused:
There seem to be some interesting exhibition photos at CMF
PS: whats wrong with the last pic
as i said before, that ‘darkened’ part is most likely to be part of an attempt at signiture reduction, most likely only frontal signiture reduction. for only frontal RCS reduction, RAM material was probabple deemed as unnecessary for the top part of the canopy as there is nothing behind that part to reflect radar waves coming from the front of the plane.
either that, or it was deemed that the extra signiture reduction of covering the whole canopy was too small to justify the extra costs involved.
plawolfgood find.
you never know, the guy might get his own standup show cos of this. 😉
plawolfPlawolf, I will have to respectfully disagree with you here. I’ve spent quite a deal of time with Koreans from South Korea and YanBian (the autonomous korean area in N.E China).. and there certainly is a very strong generational gap between the current young generation and the older generations.. while the older generation still harbors resentment towards Japan and are Pro-American.. the younger generation is the complete opposite. They did not have to grow up through the military dictatorships, or through the nationalistic ideal of working hard for poor pay in order to achieve progress.. etc.. they grew up when S.Korea was economically strong and its living standards were already raised..
Many of the newer generation fully embrace Japanese pop-culture, mimic japanese style and to some extent fashion, etc. Infact nowadays the reverse is happening, with Japan beginning to embrace Korean pop-culture, etc.. the media influence between the two have been growing and is quite strong. On the other hand, these same young generation tend to be anti-American, not to mention that the recent controversey over Koguryo’s history definitely left a “sour taste” of China to this generation of Koreans. Even the Yanbian koreans surprisingly did not harbor much resentment to the Japanese (not saying they have no resentment, but it is much less than others tend to make believe).
If China continues to press the Koguryo issue (regardless of whoever it belonged to), it will only worsen China’s image to the Koreans.
well SKs also love american culture, does that lessen their anti-american views?
there is a subtle but significant different between liking the culture and liking people.
the main reason that SKs (and chinese and pretty much all the people of SE asia) dislike the japanese is not that they hate the race, per sa, they hate the japanese for what the japanese troops did during WWII, and they dispise the fact that the japanese government is trying to whitewash history and is refusing to own up and appologise properly for what they have done.
while few SKs will say, ‘ i want to kill japanese’, most would like to beat the japanese (at pretty much anything and everything), and a significant number would not be displeased at the prospect of of SK military beating the hell out of the JSDF. however most SKs will never agree to a war with japan because of what is on the line.
so you see, there is a subtle difference between wanting to fight someone and actually agreeing to and being commited to a fight with that someone.
as for friction between china and SK. well which two nations on earth dont have friction between them? there will always be minor differences, but i seriosuly doubt these differences will ever be allowed to develop into a major spat between the two nations ans peoples.
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