starjet

“And don’t be so quick about Taiwan. Taiwan actually has many indigenous groups, crushed by the Chinese who went there.”

dont mean to be patranising, but where did u think those ‘indiginous’ groups originally came from? all of them migrated there from the mainland over the centuries, some just went there earlier then others.

but the point is that if those groups have been mistreaded, u cant blame that on the PRC as we have no control on the island. just for the record, the PRC has actually treated minorities slighty better then the majority (han).

“As for Tibet, I have mixed feelings. While it should get more roads, and schools, and clinics, I think the culture should also be preserved. Since independence is not a likely thing, I’d say pure autonomy, or becoming an SAR would be the best option.”

the PRC is investing heavily in tibet and xinjiang. and please dont someone come and say its just PRC propaganda, cos a rich and well developed tibet will be hugely benefical to china, whereas an underdeveloped and poor tibet will only drain our resources and slow our economic growth in the long run.

but i agree with u that the tibetain culture should be prtected as best as possible. however i am spectical abt the SAR thing occuring anytime soon, cirtainly not until the tibetian development plan has gotten well underway at the quickest.

us agent

is it just u, or do all americans missuse words to the extent that many words are now used to discribe things that are nothing like their explanations in the dictionary?

if u class the use of force under any circumstance as ‘bullying’ then the PRC is as guilty as charged (along with every other gov on earth, every gov that ever was and ever gov that ever will be).

the way i class ‘bullying’ is making unreasonable demands on another without any serious intent to negociate because u are more militarily powerful. the PRC has not done that.

all of the miliatry incidents that have occured in the south china sea only occured because the other side refused to negotiate (or did negotiate, but without any intention to resolve the dispute). under these circumstances, if we dont wished to give up our claims, then we must fight for them. isnt this the way the world works? isnt this the way u made the world work? dont blame us for playing by the rules u set just because we arent loosing.

oh ps, that 88 incident with vietnam in which 3 vietnam warships were sunk, the PLAN actually had the weaker force, as the vietnamese had more heavy(more powerful) ships. its kinda difficult to ‘bully’ others with a materially inferior force dont u think?

“Are you speaking about Taiwan here? It seems to me that you are…

CCP to Taiwan: “You are illegally occupying CCP land…if you do not return it to us we will use force to take it back….disarm yourselves so we can invade you more easily.””

no, more like iraq. Us to iraq: ‘get rid of all ur WMD or we bomb u’. iraq gets rid of WMD, US bombs and invade iraq anyways, just more easily.

as for the rest of that quote, well, the PRC NEVER questioned the ppl living on taiwan’s right to be there, just their status. nor have we demended that they disarm themselves. maybe we should start selling fighters and subs etc to cuba, see how u like it when an arms dump appears on ur front door.

oh, btw, u can only invade somewhere if is belongs to another nations. since both taiwan and chian agree that there is only one china, and that taiwan is a part of china, even if we attacked today, it still isnt invasion.

but u still dont get the point. what, u think everyone else are so stupid we can work out whats in our best intersets? attacking taiwan=destroying one of the strongest economies in the regoin if not the world. also, it would cost alot of money and lives on both sides. that would most like result in terriorsts attacks that would cost yet more lives and money. also, attacking taiwan now would destroy all the economic prosperity we have worked so hard to achieve.

we have everything to loose and little to gain from attacking, so what the hell makes u think we’ll do it?- ur deluded, cold war-era idea that everyone but the USA is inherently evil, stupid and bent on world domonation thats what. and u wonder y no one likes u.

us agent

“Here’s some facts for ya…

web site: South China Sea Virtual Library

excerpt…

Military conflicts in the South China Sea

There have been several cases of military intimidation in recent years, in addition to China’s use of military force against Vietnamese troops to enforce its claim to the Paracels in 1974. One confrontation occurred between the Chinese and Vietnamese over the occupation of Fiery Cross Reef (Yung Shu Jiao) in 1988, at which time the PRC sank three Vietnamese vessels, killing seventy-two people.

Another incident began with the discovery that the Chinese had occupied Mischief Reef, a circular reef within 200 miles of the Philippine island of Palawan, and within the area claimed by the Philippine government as its Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). This involved encounters between military vessels from the Philippines and the PRC in March and April 1995. It was the aptly named Mischief Reef confrontation that has catalyzed the most recent wave of interest and concern over the Spratly Islands issue (Sherry, 1998). These and other recent conflicts are summarized in Table 6. Disputes over Drilling and Exploration in the South China Sea, and Table 7. Recent Military Clashes in the South China sea.”

so what? we prefer negociations, but if the other side doesnt listen, we arent affraid to use force to protect our intersts. thats y there hasnt been a major incident in the south china sea for donkeys years. seeing how u see to support ur presidents goho attitude so much, u must apreciate the fact that if u dont back up ur words with action when appropriate, others are going to take that as a sign of weakness and become more bold and unreasonable in their demands.

u seem to be getting reasonable use of force to protect national intrests (taking back land that was illegally occupied by another), and unreaonsable demands made with the threat of force if the other nation doesnt do as u say (disarm urself so we can invade u more easily).

oh, PS, just cos its on a website dont make it a fact. i assumed u knew that, but now im not too sure.

zippo:

y bother? theres no convicing them cos they just dony listen (or read) what u say. they dont judge ur arguments based on merit but rather if they personally agree with what u say or like it. there is just no point wasting time arguing with the likes of them.

us agent

“No, we do not believe that China is “bent on world domination”…simply because they do not have the capacity to do so…not now, now 50 years from now. The US will remain superior to them…militarily, economically and politically…for the remainder of this century at the very least. “

we’ll see.

“However, China is becoming a regional power, and this is concerning from the aspect that the CCP is not transparant in its intentions…and the fact that they are beginning to bully their neighbors around with their new-found military muscle means America must act as a PLA counter-weight. “

thats bush propaganda mate. every time u make some redicoulous claim i ask for proof yet u fall silient, i suspect this will be no excpetion. care to give me any sort of realible proof as how china is ‘bullying’ our neghbours?

chinese fishing boats are being seized almost on a monthly basis by indonisia, tailand and malaysia etc, sometimes in international waters. yet u dont see the chinese fleet there ‘bullying’ those countries do u?

the rest of ur posts is so crap is not worth wasting any of my time on.

mitec

“- Lack of personal freedoms (eg. internet censorship)
– Brutal repression (eg. Tiananmen Square)
– Lack of democracy (eg. one party state)
– Hugely militaristic society (eg. unusually high % of GDP)
– Propaganda (think of Pravda)

all this does exist in China today”

all this exists in EVERY nation on earth, the only difference is how much more or less compaired to each other. and anyways, the difference in personal freedoms of a chinese and american isnt half as large as the yanks claim, and the difference is getting smaller.

“The fact of the matter is that the tianamen square incident was a brutal reaction by a govenment that is paranoid. Do you really think these students were trying to take over the country or break it up? “

well, i strongly doubt the russinas wanted to make their country what it became. ppl are gernally amazingly shortsighted and cant see the full implications of their actions or what they want might have.

i’ll agree that the tiananmen incident was brutal and bloody. but it was more a result of sher clumsyness then malicous intent. u have to take into mind that the ppl in charge grow up seeing things much much worse happening all the time, and their view of what is and isnt acceptable behaviour has no doubt been badly affected by that.

but what is important is that the person responsibe to orginising the military operation (li pen) soon fell out of favour with almost everyone in government and has not seen any real promotion since. this shows that the PRC gov in not brutal in nature. also, if u followed the news, u would realise that there has been a change of leadership already, so the old government of 89 is almost all gone. it really isnt fair to jugde the current gov based on what its perdicessor did. after all, would u like the world equating every US admin with nixson’s?

” saw the president of China being interviewed by american tv reporter Mike Wallace. He said that the students of tianamen square had many legitamate grievences that they were protesting, so even he understands what you dont. “

i never said i dont understand what thet were asking for, in fact i also want alot of the same things they do. but i totally disagree with the way thet went abt trying to get it.

also, doesnt that interview say sth abt the charater and views of our leader?

“Do the chineese public think of this as a “neccesary evil”? Ill say to you again that you dont speak for all the chineese people, and I dont trust you as a souce for what the people of China want.”

not this crap again. i think u dont trust ANYONE that says anything positive abt china. go there and see for urself if u dont believe me.

“The fact is is that the govenment of China is backward and is not doing anything other than allow foreign corperations to use Chineese labor. And you expect people on this forum to applaud your government that is “improving day by day”. “

that is ur opinon, it is hardly a fact. in fact the chinese gov seem to have much more forsight then any other nation. as for the UNDENIABLE progress, well, i dont see anyone else on earth proforming as well as china economically, nor have i seen anywhere else that is developing and modernising as fast. in just under two decades, we have brough the number of middle class ppl in china from close to 0 to around 500mil, if thats not progress, then nothing can be seen as progress.

and the progress is not just economically either, the media is getting more free too, now u can easily find articlars that criticies officals or even the gov itself, that never used to happen.

political progress is alot slower by conparisen, and i strongly doubt that china will ever become a ‘democracy’ as the west is now, partly because the leaders dont want to give up power yes, but also partly because ur system doesnt work very well. especailly in the case of developing nations like china. eg, one of the main reasons that china’s current economic growth is so spectacular is because the gov scraped the inefficent state run industries (either privatising them or closing them down). this resulted in millions of jobs being lost. NO ‘democracy’ in the world can ever do anything like it.

” I remember before tianamen square, you used to see young chineese student congregate at parks to practice their english with foriegn tourists. You dont see that kind of thing anymore.”

ha, i used to be one of those students, and that was just 3 years ago.

“
The people who are in charge of the Chineese government simply dont have the education or experience to handle bussiness and corperate industry. “

er, hu jin tao (current chinese president) grduated from eitehr qing hua or bai da(china’s oxford and cambrigde), (cant remember which), compaired to bush, he is a genious.

but antways, the gov dont run businesses no more, so their business abilities are ilrelevent. their’ job is to run the country, and they are doing a pretty good job at the moment.

us agent:

ur so vain and hypicritical its unbalivable. i can rubuff half ur arguments using just ur own words.

“do u have any idea what things are like in china?

Yes…your government is repressive and will resort to any and all means to keep its people from enjoying full freedoms of speech, religion and political affiliations…until the CCP is desolved, I will never trust things have changed.”

How would you know…you’ve never been there…all you know about it is what you’ve seen thru your favorite media source…so until you’ve been there in person, please STFU.

“yet u seem that know better then me what things are like there-someone who grown up and lived there for half my life.

No, but I have not been brainwashed by CCP rhetoric for half my life either.”

as if what ur told in the US is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. especially during the cold war days, when most ppl like u formed their now apparently fixed view of countries like china.

for ur information, i spent most of my childhood in the UK, so when i went back to china, i was full of western steriotypes and propaganda of what things should be like in china. what firmly changed my mind on the the wests’ so called ‘free’ media was not the PRC propaganda machine (whos abilities are way overrated), but seeing with my very own eyes how wrong the west had been, and to some extent, still is abt china.

i have heard (no just listened to) the arguments of both sides, and have seen the realities on both sides. and i know for a fact that both sides had been, and still are to a lesser extent, talking crap abt each other.

so dont give me this crap abt how my arguments are unrealiable just cos i lived in china.

“I reject what you say because you are obviously anti-American and do not like how America goes about protecting itself and defending its interests. You are no more unbiased than myself, yet you condemn my comments because you do not like that I believe in my country and that we are not the evil, unjust, hegemonic empire you see us as.”

am i now? care to throw in some evidence, or is ‘guantanomo justice’ now the norm for dealing with ppl who dont shout ‘amen’ at everything the US says or does?

I reject what you say because you are obviously anti-chinese and do not like how china goes about protecting itself and defending its interests. You are more biased than myself, yet you condenm my comments because you do not like that I believe in my country and that we are not the evil, unjust, hegemonic empire you see us as. 😀

if only more posted like u, just think of the time i can save.;)

“The CCP still restricts freedom of information for its people…this is a form of brainwashing. I have no problem with the citizens of China…only the CCP and its PLA “lapdogs”….or those, like yourself, who defend them.”

thats streching the actaul term ‘brainwashing’ very very stin. ahh, i see, its a trend now is it? just find a menesing sounding term (terrirost, communist, now brainwashing), then strech it so that it can be used to decribe almost everything, use it as much as possible to describe those u dont like, and maybe some ppl will think that those being described are somehow ‘evil’ even though they are doing pretty much what u r doing.

actually, i think u just explained how i can disaprove of the current US gov, yet not be anti-american.

I have no problem with the citizens of america…only the buch admin and its pentagon “lapdogs”….or those, like yourself, who defend them.”:cool:

Garry:

nice post!

i wasnt saying that all terrirosts STARTED OFF as normal ppl, but quite alot of the ppl that are currently called ‘terriorts’ did. u cant argue abt that. (whether they are still ‘normal’ and caring after a few years of doing what they do is a completely different matter)

“- Lack of personal freedoms (eg. internet censorship)
– Brutal repression (eg. Tiananmen Square)
– Lack of democracy (eg. one party state)
– Hugely militaristic society (eg. unusually high % of GDP)
– Propaganda (think of Pravda”

that, my friend, betrays ur cold-war era kind of thinking.

it is completely abt idealoligy, the list above the more of a result of the one party system that most communist countries happened to employ. and much on that list is already hoplessly outdated in realtion to china.

-personal freedom. it is not a quantative substance, ie, u cant directly measure it. in china, ppl have far more personal freedom then most in the west prefers to believe. after all, if the ppl are happy, then the significance of a little bit more or less freedom isnt remotely as large as u make it sound.

-‘brutal repression’, as apporling as that incident was, in the minds of most chinese, it was a neccesary evil as otherwise china would most likely have broken up like the former USSR. if that happened, then based on the population of china and our economic level at the time, millions could have died.

but thats beside the point. the point is, although i do admit the current system is more strict then many others, it is not a set system, but is constantly imporving. china is becoming more free with every day passed. just look at the progress made already. (ps, the current system in place can, at worst, be described as ‘quite strict’, ‘brutal represion’ doesnt even come close to reality).

-lack of democracy. well, what is ‘democracy’ anyways? the current systems employed by the US etc is a far cry from the original concept as the greeks used it.

and anyways, there is some degree of democracy in china already. eg, all villages can vote on who should be come their ‘village head’, a sort of major for the village. and there are signs that maybe in time, majors of major cities can also be elected. but i strongely doubt that the western ‘democracy’ system will ever be accepted wholesale.

-hugely militarised sociaty. well, given the US’ track record on its past dealing with militarily weak nations, can u blame us for not wanting to fall too far behind the US? and i strongly disagree with ur choice of wording. ‘militaries sociaty’, that sounds like we are training every man woman and child for war.

while it is ture that in the past, ‘ppl warfare’ was quite a hit in china, it was neccasary at the time cos of the primitive weapons we had. but now, as our military becomes better equiped and more advanced, emphysis is starting to shift towards a smaller, but much better trained and equiped profesional miliatry (continuing reduction in military personanal).

as for the high %age of the GDP taken up by the military budget, well, the %age will actaully fall with china’s continuing economic growth.

-Propaganda: ha, EVERYONE uses propaganda. what else is new?