FedaykinAm I the only one that thinks a real maritime SAR aircraft should actually be able to land on the water? :confused:
A modern (and probably bit bigger) take on the PBY Catalina.
Amphibians are a niche capability, when Britain had a global empire reaching into the Pacific there was a fair amount of logic to operating them.
Amphibians are best suited to calmer waters and in the Pacific there are lots Islands and Atolls they can operate out of. In the North Atlantic a long range land based type supported by tankers and divert airfields available in Iceland are more logical.
FedaykinI agree, there is a clear arguement for the MCA (coastguard) DEFRA (fisheries) to contribute to the MOD budget for C295M type. This would cover longer range Search to support and then provide top cover on any rescue.
DEFRA’s Marine Monitoring Organisation have a contract with Directflight Ltd, for aerial surveillance. Combined SAR training fisheries surveillance flights would cover this, with the funding to Directflight going towards the C295M costs and upkeep.
The C295M could be ordered in two groups, for the above role fitted for but not with, and the full military fitted with group. The differences would be on the prosecution side. MAD, Sonar Buoys (other group may carry marker buoys) and any weapons fit.
The first group could be upgraded to full military version if required at relatively short notice should there be a need.
Errrrr? Thats not what I am arguing at all Portagee! I think the MCA (Coastguard) should lease and operate their own type on a turnkey basis thus decoupling their requirements from those of the MOD. C295M is not ideal for the long range SAR support role, coastal patrol yes but not long range SAR support. Something like the Falcon 900 MSA comes to mind with its long range and high transit speed plus room for communications equipment. Getting the MCA to pay into an MOD asset only perpetuates the problem we had with Nimrod.
FedaykinThe problem I have when it comes to talk about training exercises involving alleged combat between the Typhoon, F-22 and Rafale is to decouple all the macho posturing and general bull$hitting about different aircraft capabilities. We also need to realise these meet ups usually have fairly scripted operation planning to meet certain requirements of the exercise. We should also realise that even if all these nations are allies none of them are going to take the gloves off entirely and use every technical and electronic trick up their sleeves.
In a guns only one on one fight between F-22 and the Rafale or Typhoon I would put money of the former type coming out tops. Thrust vectoring combined with those very powerful PW119 allow for a very pointable nose! Thrust vectoring on the other hand doesn’t allow you to defy physics! You can’t cut corners as some people seem to think! It allows the nose to be more pointable at the price of energy. If it was one F-22 in a guns only fight with two Rafale or Typhoon then I would shift my money onto the European types due to the reality that the wingman has a good chance once the F-22 has bled some energy. But if we talk realities in a WVR fight both Typhoon and Rafale have a better IR missile currently then the F-22 and the former has a HMD as well depending on airforce. Late generation IR missile means you don’t have to point the nose as much and an HMD is even better in that scenario. In that scenario an F-22 wants to be making the most of its superior thrust to weight ratio to dictate a better launch position for its missiles then using its thrust vectoring thus bleeding off energy and moving it into the NEZ of some very nasty IR missiles. Then again that is all hypothetical as an F-22 is going to use its AN/ALR-94 to keep track on what’s going on and go for the preferred BVR shot.
For me it is all dull hypotheticals rather then the realities of a real war.
FedaykinI think a UAV based solution would be very interesting for things like wide area maritime surveillance but as Portagee says they are lacking when it comes to prosecuting a target or dropping life rafts.
Also agree with Portagee about something like the C295m, in respect of a C130J based solution I think Lock-Mart are taking a stab at something that would look superficially attractive to the Treasury and would probably gain RAF support in that it keeps them in the game vs the RN.
The thing is I think we need to decouple some capabilities from taskings and have a hard think about what we want to do. I have advocated that before especially in the area of SAR support.
Personally long range SAR top cover support should be done by the Coast Guard using turn key leased business type jet conversions. When it comes to ASW/ASuW I think a long range jet powered UAV solution for the surveillance side of operations coupled with a type like the C295m for prosecuting targets is far more attractive. They should be a FAA asset with sensor operators coming from the Merlin community, as for pilots it could be an opportunity for the FAA to maintain a larger pilot pool. If all pilots in the FAA who qualify on the F35B have to rotate onto the C295m squadron for periods of time the pilot pool is increased and it makes them more attractive when they enter the civilian airline world.
FedaykinI am not entirely surprised if that is the case, no criticism of Indian ship building meant but building a carrier is a complex exercise.
To be honest I think the work up for INS Vikramaditya after delivery will swallow up a significant amount of that time anyway.
FedaykinWell its apparently 053H1G (Jianghu-V) 560 Dongguan that has come to grief.
FedaykinConsisting of a pair of Kashtan systems, judging from various CGs. However, as evident from latest 11356’s (e.g INS Teg), I don’t think IN wants any further such systems. All other new ships have been receiving AK630 + Barak + Elta STGR. And, it would make sense to remove Barak from Viraat upon retirement and reuse it. That ship has 2x AK 230 and a pair of 40mm Bofors. Would not surprise me in the least if Barak/STGR ends up on Vikramaditya.
Interesting! Thanks Wanshan.
Whilst Kashtan looks awesome it is interesting to see that AK630 coupled with Barak is the preferred solution. Maybe Kashtan performance isn’t that impressive or is it a maintenance hog…it does have lots of complex moving parts.
Any AD fit will be installed in India I presume then, no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
FedaykinCome on guys! Somebody runs a Chinese FFG onto a shoal and nobody has anything to say about it?!:eek:
Usually that is a career ending event for the captain and navigator…
FedaykinVery nice view, gives the width of flight deck….just wished the designers had kept that island on the original ship to the extreme edges.
too bad she doesn’t have any AD weapons…:mad:
When she only had to operate helicopters and the Forger the Island position wasn’t unreasonable.
I thought a basic AD fit was part of the contract?
FedaykinFedaykinFedaykinFedaykinWell that is funny considering its worth $22billion vs $7billion for Russia
Where did this number come from?
Russian Helicopters, by no means half of the entire Russian Aerospace Industry, revenue was over 3.5 billion dollars in 2011……
Eu27 aerospace report for 2011 and Canadian aerospace industry association figures for 2009 – 11
As I said I can’t be bothered anymore, JSR is clearly in LA LA land when it comes to talking about the Russian aerospace industry…he gave me a chuckle at least.:cool:
FedaykinJust one factory Irkut has same earnings as Embarrer. showing high level of domestic content.
If Panasonic sells 1 million in flight entertainment systems it does not mean Matsushiita electric is Aerospace giant. Russia has sold 2500 AL31 to India/China alone. Canada cannot design anything by its own so it cannot sell IP rights. Just supporting Russian airforce which is more than 10 times the size of Canada say alot. I am not going into hundreds of choppers produced each year with maximum indigenous content. Canada has very limited scientific base. It has to import Polar Hawak for survellence arctic. Russia can built its own surevellence equipment on Tu aircraft.Russia can produce 100 combat aircraft & 300 choppers per year and which requires 3 times engine replacement over its life time. . Just remove the banks from middle and see how much sucessfull is that model aeropace outsourcing. Tu-204/214 is truly verstalie aircraft with 14 hr range with full electronic equipment. It is on level A330. offcourse it cannot be used like Taxi as it was never designed for such role.
Prevailing industry feeling? so now you can accurately predict future. Airbus only exists because 60% of long haul jets ordered by Middleast. This economic model is receipe for permananet bankruptcy. You wont have your own airline & bank for too long because Middleast will require ever higher priced of Oil. this simple fact.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/09/us-russia-putin-west-idUSBRE86818020120709This IL-476 is the most complex aircraft when you consider it is flight cycle time, takeoff performance, FBW, glass cockpit and engine life. Only Pentagon size budget can afford such level of capability. There is practically zero chance of anything developed on such level in EU/Canada/China.
I amt living in bubble. I clearly read about banking system, demographics, employment level, natural resource and higher level focused R&D. It is vertically integrated approach of aerospace development completely opposite of Chinese model/Western model.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2012-07-08/irkut-plows-fighter-earnings-fulfilling-its-airliner-ambitions-mc-21
I can’t be bothered, you clearly are a fantasist who can’t see beyond fanboy dreams of Russian glory.
FedaykinAerospace industry of Canada? Canada does not have aerospace industry period. It can only assemble few regional aircraft like in lab with 90% important components. see the latest CS series debacle.
http://www.aviationnow.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_07_09_2012_p38-473707.xml
You may be confusing Bombardier revenues from selling trains with help of Chinese components.
Dont foreget 60% of Airbus titanium comes from Russia. or seriously believe in EU industry that can only sell because banks can finance leases and artificial low rates with incentives to profitable routes. It is artificial demand Russia aviation products have no impact on banks or airline routes. Aeroflots profits are bigger than all rest of EU airlines combined. and despite competition from large transport companies for pilots. see the pilot salaries.Outsourcing creates unemployment, loss of skills and complete loss of independence.
Superjet is still 60% Russian. and it will become more with arrival of PD engines. Superjet does not adopt Western outsourcing model. contrary it is opposite with gradual replacement of all parts and learn all western certification process. There is willingness to spend money on aviation which Canada/Brazil/China completely lacks.
what engine is going to be used by MTA?. add to that all those . I have given very low estimate of engine sales.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2012-06-01/india-and-russia-move-ahead-new-airlifterCAC can put components but it wont sell without foreign engines and avionics in desired quantities. All those K-8 more than 90% or even 100% are with foreign engines and components. As i mentioned before Hongdu that maker of trainer is already has losses. even L-15 is foreign engine and design.
China will become like West/Japan with permanent debt because it cannot develop anything in reasonable time and reasonable R&D cost with artificially supporting manufacturing.
Canada has no Aerospace industry? Well that is funny considering its worth $22billion vs $7billion for Russia and is regarded as a global leader in many areas including avionics, engines and regional aircraft. Problems in the development program of one aircraft type the CS100 doesn’t change the fact that Canada outstrips Russia when it comes to its aerospace sector by almost triple the value!
You are also obsessed with Airbus procurement of Titanium from Russia…so what?! that is a commercial reality. It doesn’t change the fact that in worth European aerospace production dwarfs Russia’s. In every metric it is larger…a320 production is over 40 a month alone! How many Tu-204 have been built in the last year or ten years for that matter? You also keep talking about IP, well Airbus and other European manufacturers retain their IP but outsource production in some but not all areas…this is a very flexible model. It is a model confirmed by the success of the European/North American manufacturers vs Russias.
You keep talking about the possible future vast sales of IL-76/476 and MS21/Superjets as well as their engines…again I hate to burst your bubble but the prevailing industry feeling is those aircraft will serve a niche in the Russian market (with Russian airlines being forced to buy them) but have little hope of tumbling Boeing and Airbus with their vast global support network.
You have such certainty that Chinas aerospace industry is just round the corner from a fall due to lack of need and a poor R&D base. Chinas aerospace industry has gone through a massive increase in size and the indigenous R&D base. It has come leaps and bounds in the last twenty years. This is mainly due to an explosion in University level education in China and domestic need for modernisation. It also has however much you stick your fingers in your ears and shout “LA LA LA” a faster growth rate then Russian aerospace and has already overtaken it in domestic worth.
Anyhow you clearly want to live in your bubble where Russia is this global giant when it comes to the aerospace sector. Hats off to a patriot even if you have Russian tinted glasses on.
To quote General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett:
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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