FedaykinI’m not too sure that the Airwing on a CVF is that small, there is almost definitly room to increase it in the future.
max capacity is 36x Lightnings(FGR.1?), 4x ASaC(Merlin ASaC.4?) 6x Merlin HM.1(with 30 or less Lightnings embarked)
airwing of 40 on a carrier displacing 65,000T isn’t great but IIRC STOVL Lightnings have a greater logistics footprint’s than the CATOBAR variant owing to the lack of a folding wing
and it has already been covered that there may be some problems with Japan actually owning a proper carrier, i know there was some discrepencies around the Italian navy’s Harrier carrier in the 80’s, so we can assume that Germany and Japan are subject to the same, although after 60 years i’m sure it would be waivered
A lot of navies would definitely benefit from a moderately sized CTOL carrier (in the 800ft 40000T region?[possible airwing of 24 fixed wing fighters, and 4? rotary wings and 3 E-2’s?]) if they could procure and operate one at a reasonable price which is where the idea falls down
And I think “The Future” is very much the krux of the matter for the Royal Navy. They are looking at 50 years of service for these carriers which is far longer then the life of the jets and helicopters that will operate of it and any government.
Get the hulls now and hope the situation vis a vis procurement improves in the future.
FedaykinHow is this a provocation, in no way does the ABM system impinge on MAD so why the upset?
Well to take an asian concept the answer is “Face”… Russia doesn’t like America playing around in its old back yard.
It certainly doesn’t affect MAD and frankly isn’t really as good a deterrent to Iranian or North Korean missile proliferation as some would make out.
A BMD system is only effective against small numbers of missiles, all Iran or North Korea has to do is make more missiles and thats not counting developing MIRV technology.
The best defence is and always has been the concept of MAD through massive retaliation in the event of an attack.
FedaykinWell a variant of Ulsteins SX series would make an excellent replacement for RFA Diligence (arguable one of the hardest worked vessels in the UK fleet).
FedaykinWell that’s another thread up in flames:rolleyes:
It was interesting in the beginning but frankly reading a bunch of hissy fits from a bunch of fanboys is tiresome.
Ho hum…roll on the next Red Flag!
Somebody posts an interesting video from a REAL fighter pilot (Playstation doesn’t count Mig23MLD – god only knows why you felt the need to cite that as proof of knowledge earlier) where he is very complementary of the IAF, its aircraft and its pilots then reveals a fair amount of information which would worry many a Western airforce and its taken as a major slight from many quarters.
FedaykinMy information is exactly based on Phazotran statement. Where Kopyo-21 is inferior to Kopyo-M/F. These have alot more credibility. Only Radar manufacturer knows the frequencies and capability of Radar. Pilots are just talk.
You clearly don’t know much about the Western fighter community do you!
It is very different from the Topgun playboy image that many people have, Western fighter pilots are trained to be managers and analysts.
In the west pilots are encouraged to talk to each other, manage missions with multiple platforms and resources then analyse the outcome.
This process is fostered with exchange pilot tours and Qwalified Weapons Instructor Courses (thats the RAF term but it carries true accoss NATO).
Your right that he is not going to know system details and he even joked about using Janes for research but he would be qualified to analyse what happened and draw conclusions about the MKI and BISON.
FedaykinVery interesting video, thanks for sharing.
Some conclusions to add to fedakyins excellent summary post:
1.”MKI is very impressive”, he apparently rates MKI & radar as better than USAF legacy (he says in other part of speech that by legacy he is referring to F-15 and F-16 fighters) fighters.
This is quite interesting given Indians operated Bars in training mode. Seems to be a capable system.
2. He says Indians will return and not repeat these mistakes (of getting into a post stall situation) since they will no longer be new to the plane. Since the MKI squadron is a new one and mixed with rookies and Bison pilots, it is a fair assumption to believe they all have only a couple of hundred hours on the type max (since MKI production per AFM is delivering 1-2 squadrons per year).
3.Fedaykin is right, he is very concerned about jamming, so apparently the AMRAAM HOJ mode is not the be all and end all against deception jammers. I believe both MKI and Bison aircraft carry Elta EL/L 8222 SPJ (Reference: Air International) and Indian Aircraft also carry Indian Tusker SPJ capable of deception jamming (Reference: Air Fleet Magazine)
4. Despite Big RCS the MKI can protect itself via Jamming and Bison with small RCS is practically “invisible” with Jamming.
I dont think Indians should get upset, he calls them professional repeatedly and even MKI comes in for praise.
It is well known besides that any aircraft today is worse than the Raptor.
Thanks there Defexpo, no doubt that the Israeli jamming stuff is excellent but I get a feeling from him that pretty much any of the new generation jamming equipment especially of Western origin is a nasty thing to go up against.
I also get a feeling that he let slip a bit more information then would be appreciated about the F22 especially at the end where he stated just before his comment about the missile load that Jamming was an issue for the Raptor. I have a hunch that it copes better then most but that is a serious slip and I wonder if he got a slap on the wrist about that one.
FedaykinI’d like to pick up on a couple of points……
He mentioned that the Su-30MKI AL-31FU engine is ‘sensitive’ to FOD damage.
How does that sit with the fact that the Su-30MKI has an extensive anti-FOD system – including nosewheels with anti-FOD mudguards plus a retractable mesh screen covering the intakes??
The whole Soviet/Russian doctrine was to build fighters that could operate from dirt strips – the Su-27 included.
He also mentioned that the engines have to be returned to Salyut for replacement.
The AL-31FU is being licence-built in India – at Koraput.
I suppose its not fully up and running yet – but once on-line, the replacement time should be no worse than any other engine.
Still, a fascinating lecture….
Ken
But why would he make that up?
Clearly the Indians were worried enough about FOD issues to tell their US hosts.
I don’t think it was intended as a major slight just telling it straight as he saw it at the time.
FedaykinThis person harldy knows anything about Su-30MKI sustain turn capability as it will be only be known by test pilot as operational pilots dont show it for life of airframe and TVC. Everything from tumansky engine to MIG-21 radar to V engine is wrong. if Koyp-21 essentailly late 80s tech is so dangers so think what can Kopyo-m/F capability.
I think this guy has a fairly good idea about air to air combat and certainly had some very interesting information to give. I think he can be forgiven about the Mig 21 radar and engine mistakes. India buys into Israeli avionics in a big way so it would be easy to asume this was the case for the Bison and to the average American fighter pilot every Russian engine is a Turmunsky even if it isn’t. Anyway he was clearly impressed with the Bison and regarded it as a serious threat even to the F22 in certain situations.
In the end this is a pilot (probably a graduate of the USAFWC) who was up actually performing these missions. Also watch the speech and read between the lines because he had some rather interesting and worrying conclusions in certain areas:
1) New generation fighter’s from the Russian block are more then a match for Western fighters like the F15/16, if flown well.
2) NATO Link16 is a decisive tactical advantage clearly shown by the outcome of the exercise.
3) New generation Jamming equipment allow fighters to approach into visual range and it appears to be highly effective – THIS WAS PROBABLY THE MOST SERIOUS PART OF THE TALK AND IS CERTAINLY FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!! Notice he even stated the F22 can be jammed until visual and he clearly stated that it hasn’t the missile load to avoid a guns fight and even upgraded MIG21 in enough numbers are a serious threat in that situation.
He concluded with the conclusion that MKI was better then the USAF own legacy fighters but that situation at the moment is mitigated by lack of experience on the Indian side.
I’m amused by his comments about the French but to be fair to them we all play that game if there is the chance to gather electronic information.
All in all a fascinating talk which will probably tweek the tail of the fanboys especially the High Emperor of fandom “Star49” but for those in the know it was very interesting.
FedaykinActually the original question was not about retaking the Falkalnds.
I would beg to differ…the question is clearly weighted towards talking about a Falklands scenario.
FedaykinWell every once in a while we get these threads where someone goes “How could we take the Falklands back?”. Ignoring the fact that the Argentine armed forces are in no position to take on MPA now. The Garrison and the fighters based there are more then enough to defend the Falklands.
The kind of procurement and build Argentina would have to perform to even have a chance against the current force would give ample time for the UK to beef up it’s defences on site.
Frankly its a silly subject which speaks more of the silly inter service rivalry in the UK then the actual defence situation down south.
FedaykinI disagree – many of the Harrier pilots have flown other types, and could easily be given a refresher course (a few flights in a Dominie, and perhaps a few flights in a twin-stick Tornado F3 or Typhoon).
I do agree with your point about the ample warning and political will issue, though. The likelihood is that we would get about three months warning that the Argentines were up to something, and a months notice of what they were up to, and a weeks notice as to the how/when of it. IF, and it is a big IF, they get the leap on the forces on the Islands, then we would then have a week or two to put together whatever forces we want to send down there.
This is insufficient time to get the Sea Harriers back into operation, but it may be time enough to improve the Harrier GR-9’s air-to-air abilities. If we can put in the helmet mounted sights, and Link 16/JTIDS, then we can at least have a go at them. We should be able to muster around thirty aircraft, hopefully all fitted for ASRAAM and HMDs, plus JTIDS. These then go on Lusty and Ark, with Ocean and a couple of container ships being used for helo decks. The ASaC-7s can be distributed around the task force, and probably be supplemented by converted Lynxes (they tested a Lynx with a Searchwater radar a couple of years ago, for some reason). The good thing is that the Harriers would be able to focus mainly on the air defence mission, though, since we now have Apaches, which could be used for some of the close support mission. Now, none of this is ideal, but to be honest, we’re talking about worst-case scenarios anyway.
One interesting question would be whether it would be possible to give the ASaC-7s the ability to provide guidance (and updates) for AMRAAMs. If this could be done, then it would help a lot…
Well the kind of build up Argentina would have to perform would give ample warning allowing time to beef up defences at MPA.
FedaykinA design something like the French mooted PA58, i.e. something like 45,000 tons, would have been a good option. It would be big enough to operate a reasonable airgroup, not too far off that of the CVA-01, and have cost less. The airwing for this era needs to be built around the Buccaneer, and probably Phantom, though there might possibly be some scope for alternatives in the longer run. An alternative to the Phantom might have been the French Mirage F-2, perhaps as another part of the ’60s Anglo-French joint project series; a twin Spey version in twin-seat form could have been an attractive alternative to the Phantom. Failing that, the Anglo-French AFVG project could have been a good Phantom replacement, given a bit more interest!
Beedalls website pretty much draws the same conclusion about CA-01 if it had been smaller around the 45,000 ton mark (he says 30-40,000 tons) it probably would of been built.
That size is big enough (Just) to safely operate Phantom and Buccaneer. As for the future if it had been built well the Phantoms and Buccs would probably have operated until the early 90’s with the E2B Hawkeye being purchased in the early to mid 80’s to replace the Gannet AEW. In the early 90’s I think we would of been looking at a F/A18 C/D purchase to replace both the Phantoms and Buccs (I know people love the Tomcat but I think the navy would of been put off by the size, cost and operational problems of operating the type off a carrier that size). That then takes us up to the late 90’s and CVF.
FedaykinWell rename the thread then:p
Oh and I do feel sorry for the American LSR team “North American Eagle” all that time trying to make a deathtrap that hasn’t got a snowball chance in hell of getting to its intended 800mph and the benchmark gets entirely moved…:dev2:
FedaykinI know its just a novel, but the ideas explored in the books of Dale Brown are incredible, and despite the cost it makes you wonder why they weren’t considered. he discusses re engining with CFM 56, equipping the aircraft with a similar sensor suite to Jstars and rivet joint, as weel as standoff cruise missles and AMRAAM’s. with the size and range of the B-52, if ou applied stealth design to various parts and used RAM surfaces on a new composite material aircraft, even though fiction at the moment, would be an awesome capability, and more flexible than a carrier!
I liked his early books but the quality started to drop and the later stories became samey. He started to recycle ideas as well which became tiresome.
FedaykinI think he means put 8 new ones in.
……but nobody is making those anymore. All engines now are by-pass fans, the old gas-guzzling true “Jets” have gone.
A by-pass engine that would fit in that nacelle would be a tiddler 7,000k thruster from Honeywell or similar. Not powerful enough. The nacelle would still need a redesign anyway, for the inboard reverse thrusters (Outboard wing engines don’t have RT because they are usually over the grass and can suck up a whole lot of mess).
Eight CF34 or BR710 would fit with relatively little pain.
Actually with all those S3 Vikings being retired to AMARG maybe that could be an interesting use for the fresher CF34 hanging from their wings.
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