I’d like to add my thanks too to Vetinari for a level-headed and realistic analysis of this whole mess rather that follow, promote and take for granted the visceral and loudly vociferous russophobe babbling of the US and associated media.

As to what Nic said, well i think anyone capable of judging for himself would know that cynically the proverbial champagne would be flowing in Tel Aviv and Washington over the shoot-down of MH17, the first for a much welcomed distraction for their “operations” in Gaza (well over 300 gazans dead by now, but who counts it anymore, after all they are just worthless “towel-heads” dying… likely this will end with a full occupation of Gaza and beginning of “colonization” like in Palestine, you watch), the second for gaining an excellent propaganda tool to use against Russia, and implicitly to advance whatever “plans” they have in regards to Ukraine and ultimately the russians themselves.

Frankly disgusting bunkum!

Go to the BBC news page the supposed puppet of the western associated news media…IT LEADS WITH GAZA!

Go to Fox news, what do you find?…GAZA IS THE SECOND ARTICLE ON THEIR HOMEPAGE!

Hardly burying news about Gaza and the plight of it citizens, to suggest that the MH17 shoot down is associated with burying news about Gaza is paranoid and disgusting! To suggest that the authorities in Washington or Tel Aviv would be celebrating the loss of MH17 beggars belief it is so disgustingly offensive.

I am sick of conspiracy theorists who leach off any major news event and try to associate it with their paranoid world view.

I don’t debate with someone who actually believes what he sees on the news.

Nic

Well I just show contempt towards tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists seeing CIA and NSA conspiracies beneath every rock.

I suppose we are equal then.

I see all the conspiracy theorist tinfoil nutters are out in force again.

Yep sadly they have arrived in full force and along with the usual local suspects have descended into a spiral of paranoid ranting about false flag operations and conspiracy theories.

Rather ignoring the simple fact that local rebels are messing around on the crash site without proper oversight and not allowing international air accident investigation teams to get on with their business.

You better not do so yet…The Ukrainian Government is not allowing a delegation of over 80 people from the Netherlands and all over Europe to leave Kiev…..in the same time there is an all out attack on the two last cities of rebel held territory by Ukrainian forces….in the same time that a suposedly truce would be ineffect for investigators to go over the site.
The rebel leader is actually asking foreign investigators to come to the site because due to high tempratures decomposition will make the situation unbearable…who told you the rebels don’t allow investigators in?

And just for once, can you all please anser the simple question in such events? QUI BONO? from the airliner shot-down…

Certainly and under no possible scenario this would ever be the rebels or the Russians. Thank you!

Well the television footage of observers not being allowed onto all parts of the crash site would give one pause to conclude that the rebels are preventing access.

A morbid point to consider but it would depend I suppose, at cruise altitude it would certainly take out the engine but the aircraft might shrug it off. Hit a fuel tank? Well I am not an expert, maybe a PM to BIGVERN1966 would give an answer. He worked on the Bloodhound surface to air missile system back in the day and appears to know his stuff on such matters. I remember seeing a video of a DHL A300 getting hit by a manpad in Iraq and the aircraft landed, the missile hit the outer wing rather then the engine and drained the hydraulics. Looking at this video it was only a matter of a meter either way and the aircraft would of blown up so yeah an R-73 in the right spot could do it.

Yeah that does rather worry me Swerve, my gut feeling is the missile battery is gone now over the border and in a few hours the rebels will miraculously find parts of an air to air missile and try to place blame on the Ukrainian airforce.

“essencially” and “with local reinforcement” – excelent!
I can say vz.58 IS kalašnikov, proudly, I know it… :highly_amused: because it looks like kalašnikov, like L-159 airframe and wing are as same as with L-39 because looks like….

Seriously, already looong time these fairly tales dont attract me, the end

I own a vz.58, the amount of times I have to explain at the shooting range that it isn’t an AK….if I had a penny each time!

Is this the real deal or a mock-up?

Looks real enough to me, it has a flight data probe and the intakes have been blurred out.

Very exciting, in the end not getting the F22 has meant they will get an indigenous F15 replacement instead.