Yeah but that wasn’t the question. It was “would you rather have one larger carrier or two smaller ones?”

how is that not relevant to this debate. SAM is most important system and if there is no money on time for that there is very little likelyhood for anything else. infact they needed SAM yesterday. see the last minute request to NATO regarding Syria.

Because this debate is about naval deployments in the Black Sea! Unless Russian ships are capable of flying bringing up the issue of Turkeys long range SAM procurement is not relevant!

It is not necessary that it is accurate information or the upgrade require using older chips as AWACS takes long time to certifiy due to substantial weight changed. chips used like in PAK-FA/Su-35 which are far advanced and compact are russian origin.
it says classified vast range boost.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne…-plans-new-one
http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2014/2/4/2156/
Russian air forces will take delivery of the third upgraded A-50U aircraf

Doesn’t change the fact that the A-50 upgrade uses Western origin chips due to their superiority according to the program manager from Beriev. Talk to him if you don’t agree.

You know when German car gets older it become very expensive to maintain. There is very little chance those subs are properly maintained and practically zero evidence of updating today. This thing is beyond Turkey operational budget. There is no chance they can compete with 636.3 as Russia best minds are in Subs not in automotive sector.

As do all cars, but we are talking about submarines here. Where is you evidence that they are not maintained properly? Where is you evidence that they are not updated regularly? Where is your evidence that their budget is not up to it? As for competing with the 636.6, my money is on the German submarines and the Turkish.

I was always right. see Czech/Irak L159 deal and helicopter deals. There is very little chance you can be right.

Says a man who thinks that widely spaced engines and a fuselage hump are critical for strike aircraft…Anyhow I was right about the helicopter deal, it was cancelled due to the rather dodgy nature of its negotiations. They later did proper open negotiations which I applaud, as I repeatedly say I have no problem them buying Russian. The Czechs could service the L159 order so I wan’t wrong about that, the L159 can be a LIFT for the F-16 so I was right about that. So not entirely sure where I am wrong. It was cancelled for financial reasons and question marks over the nature of the negotiations by Iraq. Again I applaud Iraq for sticking to their guns on that matter. They are now buying the T-50IQ.

Country is only regarded as regional superpower when some regional countries can fear it. They don’t meet that definition. Just look around.
infact IOC thrown there Olympic bid to 3rd or 4th place. They don’t believe in them of having own money.
SAMs, Helicopter, fighter, transport aircraft all those deals slow to implement and all of sudden there subs fleet modern.

By all means then pick with the Turkish in the Black Sea and see how it turns out if you are so confident.

Have you got ANYTHING to say about naval deployments in the Black Sea? Come on give it a go you might get a bit more respect if you tried.

Look if you want an echo chamber of agreement with your views go to a Russian aerospace forum, if you want to debate here realise that not everybody will agree with your views. I am perfectly happy to respect your input if you will STOP ramming random economic theory and your world view down our throats. Many people actually have you on ignore they find you so irritating PLEASE understand that we will treat you with more respect if you only do the same for the rest of us. Just stating any nation that isn’t Russia is an economic and technological failure gets rather tiresome, if that is what you want to believe fine but this is not the best forum for those OPINIONS! I really would like to have a reasoned debate with you JSR but you have to understand there are difference of opinion and your opinion is not fact. The same goes for me for that matter. Can you play nice?

Good PR for the Sentry fleet, I hope the MOD pulls its finger out someday and just put them through Block40/45 like every else is doing with their E3. No messing around putting it out to tender so we end up with an overly unique variant just Block40/45 with UK specific bits and bobs.

They cannot finalize the that cheap SAM deal with China for past year. this very simple example. they bought some hundred AIM-120C7 missiles for such large airforce couple of years back. that missile is 10 year old technology. This kind of dysfunctional military cannot deliver shock and awe of new missiles from Russian factories. infact semi conductor and continuous software upgrades more important for kill chain from communication, survellence, missiles to electronic warfare.

It is not what is outside but what is inside that define effectiveness and efficiency of military system. There is no IRST in fighters. there is no advanced long range antiship and land attack cruise missile. fighters are weak single engine and no engine upgrades for 1980s and early 90s fighter.
now procurement has slow down to tickle. they can practically default in short moment. some predications are very obvious.

Ahhh when caught out with your lack of knowledge fall back upon your old tactics of obfuscation and changing the subject!

The deal for Chinese SAMs have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

The AIM120C7 is one of the most modern variants of the AMRAAM and only just being supplemented by the AIM120D, it is still being updated and is the most advanced variant being offered for export to select US client nations. Others get offered the AIM120C5, Turkey getting the C7 shows they are the top table when it comes to US procurement. Also the argument that it is old based on the idea that the C7 development started ten years or more ago is absurd and yet again asinine. By the same argument I could say the Russian R73 is utterly obsolete considering it is based on an over thirty year old design, before you start spluttering to defend the honour of the R73 I should point out it is still very much one of the most capable air to air missiles in the world which like the AMRAAM has benefited from years of development and modernisation.Again an unrelated and nonsensical argument from you JSR.

Turkey operates Harpoon, Exocet, Popeye-1/2 and has an indiginous cruise missile program. They actually test fired their long range cruise missile over the Black Sea in 2011, if you bothered to actually do a bit of research you would know they do operate long range anti ship missiles, cruise missiles and are developing their own.

True their fighter fleet does not currently have an IRST that doesn’t change the fact that the fleet is large and modern and when they induct F-35 they will have that capability. Again an unrelated and nonsensical argument.

As for the mighty Russian semi conductor industry you keep on bashing us on the head about, considering the Beriev A50 AWACS upgrade almost exclusively uses Western chips I think you are rather overstating things.

Just accept the fact that Turkey has modern up to date Submarines and leave us all in peace!

Oh dear, where did you pluck that figure from JSR, not more of your fantasy economics? The Turkish defence budget for 2014 was set at USD 24.65 representing 3% of their GDP which is highly respectable. They are running their entire fleet of 14 modern diesel electric submarines and planning to induct another 6 even more advanced AIP examples. So they appear to be running them very easily on their very respectable defence budget.

Whilst I would agree their government is a bit dysfunctional as it stands it is a democracy nevertheless and your statement that they lack an industrial and scientific base is so laughably wrong I can barely keep a straight face whilst typing. Turkey has a rapidly growing scientific and industrial base, they have a defence industry which is confident enough to start exporting high end equipment globally. The TAI T129 is a technology integration project of a foreign design it is similar to contemporary helicopters judging their entire defence industry on the basis of that project which is by in large progressing well is asinine. Problems with the 737 AWACS lays at Boeings doors not the Turkish and I have no idea what you are going on about in respect of the Mig-31.

You might think the Turkish have limited rights in the Black Sea doesn’t mean they have to agree with you. Their submarine flotilla would be highly dangerous if it wanted to be.

Yes the F8U was a gun fighter. It was designed just before the arm chair know it alls in the Pentagon decided that guns were useless. How many reports have we all read about fighter pilots in Nam cursing those fools that they had no guns. These pilots said if only I had a gun the Mig right in front of me would have been shot down. Finally they hung external guns under the F4s but that only slowed them down and added unnessary weight.

Yes we have the F-22 and the kind of the F-35, but just you wait, some idiot will want to add bomb shackels under the f-22. The problem still remains that the more complicated a machine (an airplane) is the more prone to failure it is! Notice how the simple light weight MIG-21s gave the F4s hell. Notice how the anvil simple AK47s works when american rifles jam. Or Zeros out classed american fighters in WWII.

Have a look at the statistics for air to air kills between US fighter jets and Vietnamese during the Vietnam war, the vast majority of kills made by US jets were with missiles not canons. The F-8 got most of its kills with the AIM-9 Sidewinder rather then it notoriously unreliable Colt 20mm cannon. The F-4 got most of its kills with missiles rather then cannons:

Missile kills: 82
Cannon kills: 16.5

The F-4 got the most kills with the AIM-7 Sparrow, a missile often derided for its performance in the Vietnam war. Based upon the Vietnam war the conclusion is clear, missiles were decisively superior to guns in combat.

The current M4 is a very different beast to the original M16 fielded in Vietnam, it is by in large reliable and accurate now. Like any rifle keep it clean and it will shoot well, it should also be noted the AK is not without its problems.

The Zero might well of outclassed American fighters early in the Second World War albeit partially down to poor US tactics and Japan having a very experience pilot cadre by the end of the war it was utterly outclassed by the new generation of allied fighters being fielded in the Pacific region.

When we consider the design of the Lightning context is important. Remember the thinking around the specifications was derived from a realisation that no RAF fighter could intercept a large bomber flying at over 50’000ft at Mach 0.85.

The major perceived threat to the UK ADIZ was that of a Soviet bomber coming in at high altitude to drop bombs on our major cities and industrial centres. The EE Lightning was intended to be able to intercept that bomber and shoot it down. Time to altitude was the critical decider in its design, the EE Lightning was never intended to get into dog fights so the design was optimised to get the jet up to altitude quickly initially with a rocket pod then with the new generation of air to air missiles. The air to air missiles carried on the Lightning are optimised for taking out bombers and a payload of two missiles was regarded as more then adequate considering the RAF fielded far more fighters at the time.

At the time there was no benchmark of how to meet those design requirements so it naturally led to some rather unique solutions in the UK and abroad. The RAF was also more keen on the idea of a hybrid rocket/jet powered fighter which would of been optimal for that kind of mission profile.

The problem for the Philipines is even if they increase their defence budget by 100% it wouldn’t build a fleet that could go toe to toe with China.

The best they can do is be closely aligned with the US and possibly other regional players and look at procuring equipment that enhances their ability to patrol the area and maybe some disruptive technologies like AIP/Diesel submarines.