FedaykinThe Chinese KJ-2000 bare virtually no relation to the A-50 beyond the fact it shares the il76 airframe.
I suppose it shares some influence with the Indian A-50I as the first examples use airframes adapted for the Phalcon radar system and China were given full technical specifications for that system prior to the order being cancelled.
The KJ2000 uses a Chinese mission system and AESA radar developed by the 14th institute derived from the Type H/LJG-346 SAPARS developed for the Lanzhou class destroyer. Performance wise an utter mystery.
FedaykinEven if it was 300 and I do take that with a pinch of salt that is still way behind RSIP E3.
FedaykinThat is why I said to be fair JSR it is hard to compare but what is in the public domain about the AN/APY9 is highly impressive. It is an entirely new radar system and it’s max range performance is about 100 miles more then that of an RSIP E3 Sentry. The E3 does benefit from a higher cruise speed and altitude albeit it is worth noting the US examples are still powered by the TF33 so operational cruise altitude is not that different to the E2D. I think even with its new automated processing capabilities the E3 benefits from having more bodies in it to interpret the battle space, that is my opinion and I know there are many who disagree or argue the AEW&C should transfer its data via satcom to a land/sea based facility thus negating the larger crew.
Now max range performance of any AEW system is dependent on a great many different things and atmospherics make a big impact. The E2D is pretty much the best you can do with an airframe that size and benefits from significant American experience in AESA technology. On the other hand as proven by the E3 Block 40/45 and the A-50U the performance of older radar systems can be greatly enhanced with new processor technology and software. Considering the compromises that the E2D makes it would be interesting to see how it compares with a late generation Phalcon or the Northrop Grumman MESA as fitted to the Wedgetail. The Australians and Turkey are starting make very good noises about the performance of their Wedgetail now many of the technical issues have been sorted.
I will be fascinated to see the performance of the new AESA Vega Premier performs on the next generation A-50 (whatever they have designated it as now) I think potentially it could be a highly formidable system. What we do know is by the admission of the Russian armed forces the standard non upgraded A-50 is not exactly the best performing system in comparison to its contemporaries. It can track 50 simultaneously whilst an RSIP E3 can track 600, ponder that one hey.
This isn’t about having a boring pi$$ing contest JSR.
FedaykinWell I suppose we shall just have to see how this works out Rumcajs, unless you can tell me otherwise the Czech republic doesn’t have an arms embargo against Iraq so however frustrating the prior messing about in respect of the earlier still born contract it boils down to money. If Iraq makes a good offer vs Draken international it would be hard to resist.
FedaykinWell yes I do think its worth it, the UK did actually sell a significant proportion of its Typhoon fleet to service the Saudi Arabian contract. How is Iraq untrustworthy? They appear to pay up and are fairly firm in negotiations.
Does the Czech government want to export the L-159A or not?
FedaykinWell if there are 19 being operated by the CzAF there are airframes available to Iraq. How important to the Czech government is the chance of a military export of the L-159A? As I said the Serbian airforce had to take second place with the Lasta-95 orders when there was chance of an export. How important are those L-159A to Czech national defence vs an export sale? Juggle the airframes in service and in storage to satisfy the Iraqi and American order followed by some new build possibly? They are single seater and the CzAF already operate the Gripen, I would take the capability hit personally.
Fedaykininteresting, but Iraq is realy “serious” partner. Second, these L-159As are property of the Czech air force, not of Aero. Third, Draken International want to buy 24 plus 4 stored planes, so I guess Iraqis are out of luck now. Personaly, I will send them to the hell 🙂
Well how much does the Czech government want to see an export sale of the L-159A? As I understand it 72 were built so even with those being operated by the Czech airforce and sold to Draken international that leaves many that could be hot swapped to Iraq very quickly. An actual sale of the L-159A to Iraq could be the lifeblood to support a next generation model. The Serbian government treated their sale of the Lasta-95 as a priority over the needs of their airforce. If Iraq is desperate I can see the Czech government wanting this sown up, if most of the ground work was done before the Iraqi’s got cold feet then this could move very quickly if both sides are prepared to sign the dotted line.
If this does happen I wonder what JSR will come up with to explain it away :highly_amused:
FedaykinUK hasn’t signed up for 40/45 unless something has come up recently. The MOD did have a program looking into upgrading the fleet albeit putting it out to open tender. Personally I think we should do a direct FMS deal for 40/45 so we don’t end up with a fleet that is even more unique then it already is. Sticking to the current RSIP standard when France, US and Saudi Arabia (don’t know where the Japanese are with their fleet) will be increasingly problematic. Quite simply getting spares will be harder and more expensive.
Even looking at the paper specs the radar range and target handling capability of an RSIP AWACS is superior to an upgraded A50. I do say paper spec as anything about AEW performance is going to be highly classified so making a fair comparison of both types is a bit difficult. Ironically Block 40/45 does a similar series of changes as does the A50U program. 40/45 replaces legacy mainframe based computers with modern COTS PC based rack mounted computers. It also updates the consoles with new screens that are up to date and capable of displaying information better.
As a final note the performance of the E2D Hawkeye on paper out performs the E3 so the benefit of a new radar as well as electronics is certain.
Fedaykin+1
A4Scooter beat me on that one.
In theory an A320 based MPA could be kept relatively low risk, Airbus military already has a basic concept design. Use a mission system derived from FITS, a new radar already in production for other customers like the Selex Seaspray 7500E AESA and keep structural changes to a minimum. Also making sure that the customers don’t demand too many changes from the baseline design.
Problem is Germany has Orion with plenty of years left on them plus the choice of extending their life with new structural parts like the wings and even upgrading with FITS like the Brazilian examples. France is upgrading their Atlantique and plan to operate for many years to come. The Spanish and Portuguese also operate Orion with the same upgrade options.
That leaves Italy really but I doubt their budget is up to supporting a development program so I see them buying off the shelf, they are already using the ATR72 as a partial replacement.
For the UK an off the shelf solution is where it will be if we decide to restore the capability.
FedaykinWell amusing if anything else, I would lean towards the idea it is for a naval exercise and some rather simplistic propaganda. The mighty Iranian navy will sink it with an assortment of weapon systems.
It does indeed look some barges welded together with some drums and a light structure put on top. I wouldn’t be surprised if they rig it with explosives to make sure it goes down in a spectacular fashion.
Propaganda for domestic consumption.
FedaykinCertainly the UK public are getting a very interesting lesson in the worth of long range MPA at the moment with this particular event.
FedaykinI wouldn’t be so sure the P-1 would be cheaper, it is significantly behind the P-8 in its development. The P-8 will be built in larger numbers and operated by more countries, it has a mission system based upon that fitted to the MRA4 and we have RAF crew deployed with the USN helping its induction.
Also the P-1’s mission system is very much a unique Japanese solution designed to work with Japanese weapons. As I understand it whilst Japan would happily sell us the airframes we would then have to integrate a mission and weapons fit. Even if Japan did allow the aircraft to be exported with a mission and weapons fit Japanese weapons are significantly more expensive.
The cheaper solution would be to adopt P-8 “as is” with a very limited UK systems fit (communications and other secret black boxes) and adopting the standard USN weapons fit.
I do find the P-1 attractive with its four engine design and optimised airframes/wings but the P-8 is based upon the 737 and will be purchased in large numbers by the USN and other allies giving economies of scale we could only dream of with Nimrod. If we purchased the P-8 we can leaver civilian sources for spares something we couldn’t do with Nimrod or P-1.
What is interesting after all the talk about the P-8 not being suited to low level operations the ABC journalist interviewed last night who was on the P-8 deployed by the USN stated the search was done at 300ft above sea level.
FedaykinHmmm not sure we would of sent MRA4 unless one happened to be in the area for an exercise, HMS Echo is in the area so it make sense to send her over. If they can find debris in the sea the wide beam echo sounder on Echo would be highly useful tracking down any sunk wreckage especially at that depth.
The Australian P-3 crew on the radio earlier today were highly confident they could detect wreckage in the water with radar, they did pick up a pod of Dolphins during the search.
I would say the P-8 certainly showed its worth considering it was the first to transit onto station and can cover more ground, a strong argument for those who argue that any restoration of the capability in the UK should be with the P-8.
FedaykinOver the centuries the Crimea has changed hands several times. Until the late 18th century it was a Khanate associated with the Ottoman empire. It then became part of the Russian empire, during the Russian civil war it changed hands again multiple times between the White Army and Red Army.
FedaykinI presume that whilst the mission computers are not Russian there are still Russian bits that have Russian black boxes that need to talk to the rest of the avionics.
Hasn’t the mission computer fit been changed since the earlier batches.
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