FedaykinBy 2025 HMS Ocean will be pretty much flogged to death. She was built cheap and it shows, to be fair we will have got our moneys worth from it.
FedaykinBut you filled in a few points I hadn’t Swerve 😀
FedaykinWhy was Nimrod retired ?
I think it held up well, only its operational cost i dont know anything about
Kind of a how long is a piece of string question that one. You could pop over to Pprune and read through the threads on the matter there. In the end it boils down to three main issues:
Cost
Politics
Safety case clearance
In respect of cost to finish certification more money was needed from the treasury which is hardly a popular thing in a financial crisis. After the billions sunk already it was very much being portrayed as “Throw good money after bad”. Whilst the money saved not bringing it into service is nominal the MOD was being asked to make a blood sacrifice and considering MPA/ASW is not a core role for the RAF they preferred offering that type up for the chop.
In respect of politics after the various accidents with the type and massive cost overruns on the MRA4 the name “Nimrod” was no-longer seen in a positive light by the general public.
Finally the safety case, this only came out after the cancellation but it was probably one of the key reasons why it was actually cancelled. Nobody was prepared to sign the aircraft off as safe for service, there were numerous issues with systems and handling. Whilst that could probably of been solved with money with the bad name Nimrod had developed and the general public view that it was unsafe the treasury wasn’t keen on stumping up.
There are other issues as well, it was with hindsight a fundamental mistake trying to re-life the airframes considering their uniqueness. New ones would of been a better cheaper solution in the long run and more exportable. Nimrod was also unique meaning through life costs were always going to be higher, they would of been better served basing it on a civil airliner or large transport.
As for why MR2 was retired, fact is they should of been retired at least ten to fifteen years earlier, they were already facing serviceability issues and high maintenance due to age in the 1990’s.
The thing that really stinks is the issue of the P7, prior to the selection competition that was won by Nimrod2000 the preferred solution was an updated version of the Orion the P7. When the P7 was cancelled by the US so a competition was started in the UK for an alternative. That competition finally won by the Nimrod2000, only thing is there were two different P3 Orion variants in the competition. Firstly rebuilt USN examples upgraded by Loral and most damningly new build Orion 2000 from Lockheed that utilised much from the cancelled P7 program including the engines. So after saying that the P7 up to its cancellation was their preferred choice why did they then not adopt what was in effect the P7 in the form of the Orion 2000?
Done is done now.
FedaykinInteresting program update, first Ski jump section installed.
FedaykinWith Saudi pilots, they could have flying F-22s and it would have been a cluster-f; with competent pilots, different story.
The lightning had superior performance numbers, by good margin, over anything the Israelis had.
Can’t agree with that statement, 1978 the Israeli’s had the F-15A which out performs the Lightning in all respects.
FedaykinFrankly I am rather relieved the 155mm howitzer option died a quiet death, shades of a unique “British” solution that only makes the vessel harder to export. I think the current plan for a 127mm is the best way forward. Personally I prefer the OTO Malera 127/64 LW to the BAE Systems 5″ as it has a wider range of interesting munitions available. Also ironically Babcock the company that developed the 155mm turret based on the Mark 8 is the partner for the OTO. Babcock is also the current maintenance partner with the RN for the current 4.5″ guns making for a logical continuation of support operations.
This is the 155mm test variant:
FedaykinThat BF109 picture reminds me of the PA-48 Enforcer, a turboprop Mustang variant intended for COIN and ground attack.
FedaykinThe RN has Eight spare fully working Merlin HM1 that could be hot swapped to the Canadian’s! If Augusta Westland, the UK and Italy have any sense they should be offering those HM1 as an interim solution for free with the Canadian’s paying for operational costs only. This to be followed by a Canadian order for a definitive HM2 variant with the preferred T700-T6A1 engines that are fitted to the CH-149. There could even be scope for using structures from the nine VH-71 they purchased off America in that build and they could make a decision on having the Eight HM1 upgraded to a similar standard or returned to the UK. If Canada put aside the embarrassment Augusta Westland and the UK could have them up and running with a working helicopter pretty rapid
FedaykinWell that is nice but he hasn’t given any data respectfully. He seems to think a Hawk has transonic performance in a climb. Different countries operate different QRA levels, I frankly am slightly surprised at a four minute QRA. Also is France using the Alfajet for QRA? Not that I am aware of.
FedaykinYou rumbled me 1batfastard! :eagerness:
Curiously you are the first member to actually raise the point of my forum name in my nearly eight years of membership! I try and read Dune at least once a year and I have a soft spot for the film. Didn’t like the more recent TV series personally. Freddie Jones was in Emmerdale, Dune and Firefox by the way.
LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!
FedaykinFine, I am still not wrong. RAF are on a fifteen minute QRA and it was a five minute QRA in the height of the cold war. I am not twisting anything, I clearly said that in theory it is possible in certain circumstances. Nevertheless with the current QRA status Hawk hasn’t got a chance and I doubt it could even with a five minute Q alert.
I am sorry but you are incorrect Sens. You say thirty minutes away but fifteen of those are taken up with the UK QRA alert period, you also incorrectly alluded that somehow Hawk is transonic in a climb. That is not the case, it can only break the sound barrier in a dive, I honestly don’t understand why you are arguing that point? You haven’t proven me wrong and at least I took the time to explain the figures. There is a reason why countries use Supersonic jets for QRA, they are the only types with the performance to perform the role when dealing with high flying fast targets and that includes passenger jets. Why do you think the Austrians went for a supersonic type?
Fedaykinso lets take more complex aircraft like F-22. it is introduced with AESA radar, internal bays, TVC with IR suppression, largest thrust, steatlh so it is understandable it is going to cost alot more but basic things are already there. EF cannot be compared with such complexity. It is more comparable to J-10 development. and there is videos of short take off run of J-10 showing how light weight the fighter is.
You still have the same basic engine and radar and no CFT. so there is no fundamental difference. so all your upgrades are minor. no heavy jamming pods, there is not heavy 5 cruise missiles certified. nor any supersonic standoff weopons.
this was independent study done by Janes. so atleast what India cannot afford it is unlikely UK can afford the same thing.
see this paragraph. either equipment support costs are part of 159 billion plan or not. if they are part of 159billion it means real procurement will be alot less. and if not than you have way to big for your budget.
It is old design missile with slower speed and higher weight. and not suitable for saturated attack. how many EF can carry it and what speed?
Spitfire8 didnot understoond my post. I said there alot of radar manufacturers it means atleast they can make older tech M scan radars. and seeing how Chinese perfect low end of the stuff as they make more of them. (see F-7 aka MIG-21 example). it is reasonable to assume that Chinese M scan radars will be better.
:very_drunk:
FedaykinWrong. Intercepts are made against approaching targets. Here it is about the threat reaction time. In the case of the Boeing 777 it is >10 minutes left for the Hawk to reach that height and speed. The Hawk has a transonic capability should the need arise to transform some kinetic energy.
– That did the DC-8 in a theoretical way with the support of a Jetstream. When the gauge still showed Mach 0,8+ within air moving with ~Mach 0,2 what gives a speed of Mach 1 over ground added at that height.
No I am not wrong that is the reason that has been given on this forum and others, the Hawk just hasn’t got the grunt with the reaction times we are talking about. In recent intercept scenarios Typhoon had to go Supersonic to get there in time. The pilots have to get from the crew room, into the Q shed, into the jet, power it up and its associated systems, taxi and get off the runway. That all eats into the time you have to perform the intercept, in theory with lots of warning yes a Hawk could get into a head on intercept with a 777 but I wouldn’t bet on it. If it is an even higher and faster flying type like a 747 forget it. As far as I am aware current QRA time in the UK to wheels rolling is 15 minutes which rather eats into things. As I said in my earlier post it is theoretically possible in certain circumstances but you need plenty of warning and the fact is a supersonic type is far preferable in the role. The Hawk has a Transonic capability yes but only in a dive, you are suggesting Sens that the Hawk can break the sound barrier in a climb?
Ironically I put forward the idea not that long ago of using a sub sonic trainer jet to do intercepts of airliners and it was Poo Pooed for exactly the reasons I am writing now. You live and learn I suppose.
FedaykinIn many ways the Mig-25 was the inspiration for Tom Clancey’s Firefox in particular the panic it caused within NATO. As I understand it NATO got the Mig-25 mixed up with the Mig-23. Basically they took the Mig-25 performance figures and then mixed it up with the performance and production figures for the Mig-23. Leaving them to assume the Russians were building huge numbers of a fighter that could get close to Mach 3 but operate from austere forward bases. Add to that grossly over rated assumptions on its avionics and radar performance led NATO into thinking they were facing a mass produced horde of super fighters! The beginning of Firefox is very close conceptually to that panic.
On a side note Tom Clancy was one of my colleagues school teacher.
FedaykinStill want us all to laugh at you JSR, slow day is it? Lets play the JSR drinking game!
Yes F-16 was basic and so was MIG-29. But the budget and development at that time was to create a basic airdefence fighter in shortest time. not some multi decade super fighter. EF from the start was expensive programe. so the fighter entering in 2003 should have every thing.
:very_drunk:
No fighter program in any country enters service with every feature planned ready. From F-22, Rafale, PAK-FA to Typhoon they all have a graduated development program. That is how it works, that you think otherwise yet again shows your utter lack of knowledge…this is fun! First drink in the JSR drinking game, whatever takes your fancy. Personally I like a good rum. This shot is for showing a lack of understanding of how the aerospace industry works a common JSR fault.
Cost not just increasing because of upgrades. Cost increases due to slow procurement rates and long R&D times. upgrades are very minor.
Yes Typhoon is a very costly program you won’t get any argument from me in that respect. Sorry shot this time JSR actually has a point the Typhoon program is very expensive as it pretty much every other one as well.
160b pounds in 10 years. from where these figures is coming from and the credibility of politicians in implementing it in 10 years. it isnt self explanatory either. India does not have that big budget and it is supposed to over take UK. so UK can maintain more nuclear subs, larger aircraft carriers on smaller budget?
:very_drunk:
And everybody have another shot in the JSR drinking game! Changing subject to something unrelated because he can’t actually argue any relevant points!
2002 is very old missile if it hasnt been upgraded interms of speed, rcs and steep dive s curves. It is not brahmos. Aeroplane has more and is more verstile so various features can be upgraded.
:very_drunk::very_drunk:
Ahhh drink two shots now in the JSR drinking game. Shot one because despite having it pointed out that Stormshadow is not an old missile by any reasonable measure he still persists with his theory. Second shot for starting to talk up the wonders of a particular “Russian” developed system the Bramos.
those are small pods.
:very_drunk:
And another shot for being completely ignorant of what is being explained to him! Those pods contain all the ECM, ESM and towed decoy systems for Typhoon as part of the Praetorian suite of defensive aids. Rendering the need for an external jamming pod rather mute. That they are small rather shows the wonders of the European electronics industry.
The point is Naval Typhoon from 1980s would have more success. with continous enhancements.
:very_drunk:
Another shot of whatever spirit you enjoy as JSR now does his usual contradiction of his own points. JSR loves to say that the posts of other far more knowledgeable poster are just conjecture, JSR then puts forward his own conjecture that Typhoon would of had greater success with a carrier variant. None of the partner nations needed Typhoon for the carrier role there is no point adding the features needed for that role if the core market is not interested.
It only confirm Meteor is short range missile that current Gripen radar can fully exploit it. and even that is not integrated and bought for Typhoon.
Another shot for pure dumb ignorance! Doesn’t matter how many times it is pointed out that a system has a particular performance profile in this case METEOR being very much a long range missile if JSR thinks otherwise he will defend that incorrect view point to the ends of the Earth!
There is alot of radar manufacturers. so i am not sure why such claim of best M Scan radar.
:very_drunk:
A final shot for the sheer fun of reading a childish question written by a known troll! I fully admit that I should of said “One of the best”, there is plenty of evidence to show that is the case.
So how are you all? Any problems with your livers? The JSR drinking game can be tough going! I have a suggestion every time JSR posts a stupid comment just post the drunk symbol as a reply! We will all know it is the JSR drinking game and have a good laugh and it saves plenty of time typing long replies correcting his drivel. Good idea?
:very_drunk:
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