Well yes they could. But I think the Germans would be a bit upset at us!

Well because I don’t think you know what you are talking about, not an insult just an observation.

It is petulant true, but I see that you won’t actually take on any serious criticism of your points. You haven’t cited anything only raged away when you didn’t have a choir of people agreeing with you. You haven’t posted a single cited link to any article stating that a submarine manufacturer now is prepared to sell the knowledge or vessels. You haven’t posted a single cited link that shows that there are still significant international defence sales to Taiwan. I suggest you read Swerves post as he far better makes the point then me.

To be fair at least your last post wasn’t entirely raging insult fest. Don’t like it there is always an ignore button

Now Ching Kuo

Nope, you started down the rabbit hole. Lets compare:

Frankly I don’t think you know about what you are talking about Wilhelm.

vs

Now that you’ve finished dribbling on your shirt front in public for all the world to see, care to re-read the thread?

I think what I said was rather tame and purely after you started to argue the toss over recent defence procurement issues for Taiwan, you are the one who ended up with that highly insulting post about me dribbling down my shirt. You are the one screaming for cited evidence accusing me of posting opinion rather then fact when you haven’t cited one thing and have only posted opinion. You say I have lost all control yet you think that post is all fine and no problem. I am perfectly calm and slightly bemused over your reaction. If I am a laughing stock in your opinion that is no skin off my nose, I think you are a bit of a child looking at your reaction.

Swerve completely took your argument to pieces in post #26, I see you are not ranting at him. In my opinion I don’t think you are up to speed on the subject, I see you find that view insulting but your reaction is wholly out of proportion. If you are going to keep on raging at me for what was frankly a mild dig then I will carry on as you clearly don’t know when to calm down and I think it is amusing to watch you go completely to pieces.

The thread is indeed here in all its glory for others to read.

You are then one who has posted the gravest insult.

You are the one who has posted opinion without any cited evidence.

I have happily agreed with some of your points , I haven’t lost any argument because I am not in one. Just replying to someone who has got on their high horse when someone dared contradict his opinion.

Again grow up

To be honest why does India need an all aspect stealth fighter on their new carriers at the moment? As it stands they will have regional superiority for quite a while in this area.

Get off your high horse.

You have found to be wrong, I took the time actually cite what I was saying with a link and have further pointed out this is well reported, you are the one thinking that a few designers are enough to help build a submarine, we are not talking about the last decade (actually something I agreed with) we are talking about NOW! You clearly haven’t a clue how difficult it is to design and build a submarine thinking that free flow of some expertise in is enough. Blueprints are not available now, this is well reported and I even kindly cited with a link as you were being snotty about it. That link clearly states that Taiwan isn’t getting help anymore.

You haven proven anything except your lack of knowledge around Submarine development and construction plus an inablitity to use Google.

I haven’t moved any goalposts just pointing out things that are well known, it is you who has moved the goalposts talking about political infighting. Something I agree with so I don’t see why you arguing that point.

I am sorry if you are offended by me pointing out where you are lacking in knowledge, such is life on the internets. Accusing me of dogmatic mantras is going to get a belligerent response so I think we are even.

As for getting the last word in:

Pot

Kettle

Black

You are also stating opinion as fact and I have at least tried to support what I am saying.

To answer your questions:

1. Yes. But we are talking about now!
2. Yes. But we are talking about now!
3. No. But individuals are not enough OEM support is needed in Submarine development!
4. No. But individuals are not enough OEM support is needed in Submarine development!
5. No. But individuals are not enough OEM support is needed in Submarine development!
6. No. But individuals are not enough OEM support is needed in Submarine development!

See a theme here…

Get the last word I honestly don’t care

Those tiny orders mean nothing and those countries since have stopped defence deals with Taiwan.

You keep replying about the domestic Submarine program which I agree is the only way forward and is well reported about. It is also well reported that nobody wants to sell them a design or give them any help! I even put a link in to a report on said matter which you chose to ignore!

So no not a dogmatic mantra. Just a better understanding of well reported evidence that you choose to ignore.

You keep on blathering on about individuals which is all very well but isn’t enough for a submarine.

The Italians wanted to sell some submarines in 2003…great HDW of Germany wanted to sell a submarine or two even more recently! Neither countries want to now which is what I am trying to explain to you! In the last five years international defence sales to Taiwan have been drying up!

The defence feasibility study for domestic submarine production in Taiwan you talk about was disputed by the US DOD, there was even a link to that report in THIS forum a few weeks back. IT WAS DISCUSSED!

So don’t accuse me of dogmatic mantras! You clearly have no idea how complicated submarines to build and seem to think that a few rogue designers are enough! You ignore a cited article plus god knows many others if you use some Google-fu pointing out that nobody is prepared to sell to Taiwan anymore except the US and even then suppliers in the country and Congress have been reluctant to do it.

No Wilhelm complete designs and the ToT to actually build them! This has been in the public sphere for years! Nobody is prepared to sell even the designs for a Diesel sub, it is the main reason why America has not been able to service the request for new Diesel subs.

Difference between South Africa and Taiwan is China! Several countries were indeed prepared to bend the spirit of sanctions against South Africa as there wasn’t really any significant penalties involved. Taiwan is different, China can cause serious financial pain for companies and governments that sell high end weapons technology to Taiwan or the US if it is for on-sale to Taiwan, even if it is knowledge rather then hardware. France won’t even help overhaul the M2000 that they sold to Taiwan in the 90’s for fear of offending China!

Frankly I don’t think you know about what you are talking about Wilhelm. It is well known that the global defence market is pretty much slammed shut to Taiwan due to Chinese pressure. You talk about Human Capital getting around these issues for projects like the Carver but we have found in more recent years that there was far more secret help from companies and foreign governments for South Africa then was revealed at the time. China has massive financial clout through the size of its market and the credit it has given to other countries. A diesel Submarine requires a significant amount of direct input from other companies with experience of their design and construction, a rogue designer with a set of blueprints isn’t good enough! Just the knowledge around what steels to use and how to weld them is a closely guarded skill that requires significant direct input from any advising company or country.

http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/taiwan-submarine-import-and-export-behavior/