A little off topic but dose anyone know when the RAF E-3’s are due for retirement and what capability the 737 AEWaC has because if the UK has a need to replace E-3 in the next 10 years buying 737 for two roles may make P-8 a good long term option and the same could be said for a Airbus but they some way behind Boeing at this time. However all this means no jobs for the UK aircraft industry unless the aircraft are built in the US and fitted out in the UK
As I understand it RAF E3D retirement was pegged for around 2025. From my conversations at Waddo last year that retirement date is pretty much kicked into the long grass. As Swerve pointed out they are nowhere near their airframe life. They have done a fraction of the cycles an airliner will do in the time and can be kept in service for many more years. With the RC135W coming into service I think Sentry will have its service extended to match. Considering the USAF is keeping their larger fleet in service they are more then sustainable. The main issue is they are falling behind other Sentry operators when it comes to systems. RAF Sentry are maintained by Northrop Grumman in a unique configuration and still use 1970’s vintage mainframes! USAF E3 are going through the Block 40/45 upgrade which includes the installation of new computers, operator terminals and LAN network. According to the Northrop Grumman representative I spoke to last year they could offer something similar or the RAF could go for Block 40/45. The catch is finding the money!
Personally I think the RAF would be better off putting Sentry through Block 40/45 then adopting a new type.
Fed knows I make no apology for using terms that, for the most part, are banter…and it is something that will irk him for many years to come I hope!.
Oh you know it will Jonesy 😀
Some Light-blue Cranwell loving sounds interesting 😉
Whilst not wanting to hijack thread I will say what I have said before. I don’t doubt what senior light-blue types were saying in Piccadilly but I have known dark blue and green types to get up-to exactly the same childish behaviour. Add to that the general back stabbing they all get up to! The boys in green actually ran an office with mid ranking officers to leak anti carrier reports to the press (who lapped it up)! Remember all those reports in the press about how unnamed army generals were furious about the carrier procurement around 2010 SDSR! That came out of that office and it certainly wasn’t cricket! The Navy have been actively trying to disband the RAF for so long it has become the norm! Remember all those leaked reports yet again around 2010 SDSR that the best thing to do was get rid of the RAF and hand the capabilities over to the Navy and Army…much of that leaking to the press came from boys working in offices wearing dark blue. I don’t doubt light blue leaking to the press was happening at the time as well. That all three services are actively tasking people paid by my taxes to Poo-Poo the other services is shocking! Banter is one thing but really….
It is tiresome when the are more important things to deal with…I have no problem with banter and actually not quite bothered about the whole Crab thing as I sometimes come across – was a bit more petulent then usual when replying to Rockall alas Jonsey me boy (Or is it Andrew now?) – call it the week I have spent in a hotel room rather then my own! :p But I do observe it is religious for some to perpetuate the more self defeating aspects of inter -service rivalry – don’t get me onto Sharkey Ward again 😉
Whilst I am echoing Swerve here SlowMan I still want to add a few things. You have come back from a ban and are trying to sneak in your made up requirements:
Which would suggest the USAF has been asking for supersonic capability to vendors.
Alenia are allowed to state their jet is Supersonic and that is an advantage in their opinion. The USAF and DoD are not allowed to ask for that! It is not in the KPP list and if there is the slightest hint that they are asking for it then the whole bid can be protested by any competitor (including those who make supersonic trainers)!
The M-346 is good enough if there are F-16Ds available for transition training. The M-346 is not good enough if there are no two seaters available.
No just no! This is you yet again trying to sneak in this idea that only a jet with high altitude transonic performance can perform the LIFT role for the USAF. The USAF uses the F-16D to help transition pilots to their newest jets because the T-28 is obsolete and can’t perform all the syllabus! The M-346 has more then enough performance as does the Hawk T.2 to perform the LIFT role for late generation fighters. For that matter a modernised T-28 could perform that role. STOP peddling this myth!
Ah Slowman comes back from his ban and the old supersonic issue rears it head again!
There is no KPP requiring Supersonic performance. If the DOD and USAF use Supersonic performance to favour a particular design the whole process will be protested and thrown out! End of story!
Thankyou for your very respectful answer Rockall! Lets just say this armchair civvie warrior can be a bit petulant on occasion 😀 Believe me I have written some rot in my time so can’t complain too much 😉
Your clarification it was most interesting, “opinion” should always be cited in my opinion and I am happy you have as such. We have had a bout of opinion being spun as fact lately by members of this forum so maybe I was bit sharper then usual. I did not know that Raytheon owned some of the kit…if opsec requires I will enquire no more on that subject except to say a probe might well help. I have heard that gutting the RAPTOR pods for their optical sensors might be a way of getting them on Sentinel. Apparently those sensors formed part of the offer made for an ASTOR derived Canberra PR9 replacement.
Welcome to the forum we are an interesting bunch to say the least!:D Inter-service rivalry is my pet peeve alas! Myself and Jonesy have sparred and joked on the matter in equal measures!
I see any MPA ASW return being a purple driven solution and in many ways I see the work of the Sentinel squadron very much being a basis for how such things will work.
We have all heard how well Sentinel is alleged to have performed in Ellamy but as to any evidence of this? Remember a recent inadvertent release to the Danish media of a classified report on NATO Ops over Libya was highly critical of Int operations by all partners once the US pulled the Int plug.
The well made jet as currently configured is severely weight restricted, the crews all have to be below a certain weight and last time I looked even the doors to the mission equipment racks had been removed to save weight. The Raytheon sensor is the problem (and to some extent Raytheon keeping their system all to themselves). Nice jet, outdated concept of ops and a very well spun story I think.
So let get this straight Rockall…because a report was released (one of several actually) that NATO allies as a whole struggled to deliver certain capabilities after the US pulled its support the conclusion must be the R.1 Sentinel underperformed?! … just my opinion here but “What utter rot”! By in large the criticism was levelled due to lack of refuelling capability or the ability to sustain high intensity operations. The UK offered a unique capability within European NATO members to the campaign in the form of R.1 Sentinel and the type was in high demand by the operational commander.
As for the Weight issue got anything to back up your claims? Whilst it is open knowledge that the type has suffered range and endurance wise due to its lack of probe and shaving every ounce of weight has been a priority it still performed 10+ hour sorties in that campaign with a new crew taking over shortly after it landed to refuel. That shows a high level of sustainability in general. They have also upgraded the Satcom and discretely removed some of the ground station data-link kit saving more weight recently.
Considering the radar and associated systems are highly classified it is difficult to comment about its overall performance beyond the fact that the people running the campaign asked for its services as much as possible and those independent of the MOD and RAF have been highly complimentary of what the type brought to the table.
Care to explain how it is an outdated concept when it appears to be in high demand as an ISTAR platform. The only spinning I have seen so far is from you.
Considering you throw terms like “Crab” and “PONGO” around I fear you are yet another person more interested in the childish labels of inter-service rivalry then the realities of the current defence budget. As I have said in the past as far as I am concerned the services are going to have to learn to get on with each other without looking at how they can stab each other in the back to poach budget they feel should be gifted to their service. I am certainly sick of people saying service A can never sort themselves out to work with service B. Tough the defence budget and the treasury that controls it says otherwise, the services have to learn to work together to protect the budget as a whole or the treasury will salami slice them to death! The cold hard reality is post 2015 the RAF run seedcorn initiative is probably not enough to relaunch a fixed wing MPA ASW capability. The Fleet Air Arm on the other hand still maintain a training stream for helicopter ASW and will be needed if we want to relaunch a capability. On the otherhand the the Royal NAvy need to accept that the experience being saved by project seedcorn will be highly useful pulling that capability back….the solution will be purple if they have any sense. I don’t care about what colour uniform won’t work at another base because it is owned by a different colour uniform…they can grow up or shove off as far as I am concerned!
And before you say “Jonesy” started it with the “Crab” stuff whilst I highly respect his opinions and his loyalties it really pains me to see him lower himself to such childish terms.
At £15.5 million for 2 airframes 146 is a cost affective solution to the transport problem in Afghan but no one here thinks for one minute that you can slap a MPA together for that and as for it being awful that is an option and no one really knows that. What we do know is Nimrod had some of best censors around and we are not talking about major airfarme works like new wings
Totally agree that is my opinion 😀 Tempest414. I just honestly don’t think it would ever happen for many reasons but especially that the RN office looking into options for a replacement clearly leaned towards off the shelf solutions.
Taking an already elderly aircraft like the Bae 146 and turning it into an ASW type has disaster written all over it. Also imagine the press! “MOD buy Nimrod replacement off company that messed up Nimrod – shock story Page.2”! I must admit the opinion of “Sammie 21 years old from Southend” 34D cup on page 3 about the matter will be interesting 😉
Exactly!
IF and I really mean IF an RFP is launched for an MPA after 2015 SDSR it has to be off the shelf! It can’t be fantasy future aircraft concept program!
Yes cheap but these 146 are to provide in theatre transport in Afghanistan. The airframes are being put through the minimum changes to make them fit for service in theatre.
What they are not doing is installing ASW kit!
A Bae 146 based solution would be awful!
Arrghhh! Stop showing pictures of it! It won’t happen EVER PERIOD! 😀
Neither the RAF or RN would want it! The whole idea has disaster written all over it!
Anything procured will be off the shelf!
Rii touches on the real question! Do we want a platform that can perform high endurance long range Blue Water ASW?
If yes then we need something like Boeing P-8 or Kawasaki P-1!
If on the other hand we are saying Blue Water ASW is to be performed by Type-23/Type-26 and Merlin HM2 the requirement changes to what Rii suggests something simpler and shorter ranged that can perform Brown Water ASW.
Ignoring the RAF seedcorn initiative the Navy is the only service that still has a training stream for air based ASW. I think it should be fairly easy to transition Merlin sensor operators to a type like C295 MPA.
Why do people keep on bringing up the Bae 146 as a possible solution?! 😮
It has “Spinning Bow Tie Extravaganza” written all over it! The Bae 146 is an elderly aircraft no longer in production! Same as the Nimrod! It would require a high risk integration of mission system and sensors into an old aircraft that wouldn’t offer any significant performance improvement over the C295 MPA which is a proven off the shelf solution based on new airframe.
We won’t know anything until 2015 SDSR but what we do know from the Royal Navy office put together to explore a future capability is they regard the C295 MPA as the low end base line and the P-8 as the high end base line and they ONLY considered off the shelf solutions!
Considering how much BAE Systems fowled up Nimrod (with help from the MOD) there is NO WAY they would be let within a hundred miles of submitting a solution!
Well technically this is the wrong thread to post this in 😀
Lower block LB03 of HMS Prince of Wales being moved at Govan! Yes whilst we have been so focussed on Queen Elizabeth her sister ship is starting to get big! QE which will be structurally complete by October will have to clear the dry dock fairly quick for PoW to start assembly:
I have no doubt that there is some tussling going on between the Airships and Lordships over who gets the jets but as of yet 40 has only been given as a speculative figure with between that and 60 being given. Fact is the aircraft will be in production for a number of years and further batches can be purchased in the future. It will take a long time before the aircraft are fully operationally available as it is. There has been some talk recently over the retirement of Tranche 1 Typhoon and replacing it with F-35A which would appease the Airships as they would get a jet that can’t go to sea.
QE class will never probably operate in the same way a fleet carrier would. I actually see an operational profile similar to how Harrier was operated off the Invincible class in later years. No more then six jets in peacetime to allow currency to maintained and so they can participate in exercises and the ability to surge to between twelve and lets say thirty in a crisis!
QE class in a crisis is a jack of all trades and would deploy with F-35, Merlin HM2, Merlin HC3/4, Merlin ASaC variant, Wildcat, Apache and Chinook. With all those different Helicopter types being carried even with twelve F-35 which is the same amount of Jets as was carried in the Falklands war the carrier would be rather crowded!