In a real war between nations the confrontation of two aircraft on equal terms is the most unlikely scenario. And the air force that flies the less maneuvrable aircraft will not recomment its pilots to enforce such engagements. And Indian pilots are surely considered more “well-picked” than American, just given the number of people per fighter.

I think everything depends in the technology, training and numbers of aircraft involded to see who is most likely going to win.

Technology is very important, piting a Su-25 against an F-15 is not a fair dogfight, i mean same types and same generations are always evenly matched.

The F-15 is not superior to the MiG-29, niether the F-4 to the MiG-23 or the Mirage III to the MiG-21.

Training is important too because is another variable that affects the out come of the battle

Numbers are very but very important, if you have same types and same generation aircraft the numbers will decide everything.

But if you can not win in the battle you can always win in the propaganda war i mean all the nations give statements either claiming victory or minimizing defeat because bad publicity means bad sales and that applies to Mikoyan, Sukhoi, Boeing, Dassault, or any combat aircraft manufacturer

The F-15 has the best combat record in part because it always has fought enemies that did not have superiority in technology, training or numbers.
In the Bekka valley air combats of 1982 for example they never faced any fourth generation fighter; in GWI they had a superiority of at least 10:1 against the MiG-29s if we count all the fourth generation F-16s, F-18s, F-14s and F-15 facing the 40 fourth generation Iraqi MiG-29s, same was Yugoslavia where at least they had a superiority of 10:1 and where they had AWACs and AIM-120, the Serbian MiG-29s did not carry any R-77s and were not suported by AWACS
See that only of US F-15C/D the F-15 outnumbered the MiG-29s in a rate of 3:1 in favour of the F-15s
The 120 F-15 C/Ds deployed to the Gulf flew over 5,900 sorties and maintained a 94% mission capable rate — 8% higher than in peacetime.

source http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/whitepaper.html

and to that we have to add 48 US F-15E
Although the F-15E Strike Eagle was still not fully combat-ready, 48 F-15Es flew in the Gulf War. F-15Es joined other Coalition aircraft in searching for and attacking Iraqi “Scud” missile launchers.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f15_12.html
So if we count only of US F-15C/D/Es there were 168 F-15s that outnumbered the MiG-29s in a relation of 4:1 if we add the Saudi F-15s we get a relation of 6:1, if we add the F-16s we get a relation of 12:1 because two hundred and forty-nine F-16s were deployed to the Gulf , so only of F-15s and F-16s there were 500 aircraft, the only fourth generation fighters that Iraq had were forty MiG-29s, these MiG-29As had to fight close to 500 F-15s and F-16, see we are not counting niether the Mirage 2000, F-18 or F-14s that were deployed too

Therefore F-15 mainly shot down strike or obsolete fighters, mostly MiG-21s, Su-22s, Su-25s, MiG-23BNs.

When it fought MiG-29s it fought MiG-29As never faced MiG-29Ms with R-77s and when it fought versus the MiG-29 it always had numbers and training on its side.

The F-15 users never admitted losses, they always kept the desire to win the propaganda war, the F-15 users do not admitt that MiG-23s, MiG-29 or MiG-25 have claimed victory over the F-15s this is quit amazing because basicly they claim either their enemies never fired their missiels and if they fired them they never shot down any F-15, i mean a fighter might be 5 or 10 years older or less agile but still the Alamo, Apex or Acrid can kill the F-15 .

A similar case is the F-16.

In 2007 the MiG-29, Su-27, J-10 have variants as good as the Eurofighter, F-15, F-16, F-18, Rafale, what happens you can not always get the best variant at the appropiate time an example is the MiG-29M and MiG-31M that in the 1980s were excellent machines but never entered service or the F-14D that very few were built

Excuses? How quaint. This is nonsensical babble; I don’t even know what “incident” you’re referring to. First off, there were no F-14Ds during ODS. Second, please give corroborative sources that say the F-14s fought any Mig-25s during ODS. Third, the onus is on you to show corroborative data that says that the Iraqis scored more than the one F-18 kill. F-14s were rarely given OCA/Sweep missions from CENTAF because it was an air force show and they didn’t have the ability to EID like the MSIPII Rodans did. This is why the F-15s got the majority of the kills. It was literally being at the right place.

I find it ironic that claims by the Iraqis and Russians are fully acceptable to you, despite being one sided but Iranian claims are baseless, despite there are some USAF and USN documents that support these claims in the general sense. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I’m not certain I believe everything Cooper has claimed, but at least he cites sources.

What I was referring to is the 1999 Operation Southern Watch engagements between F-15s and F-14s against a pair of Foxbats. The F-14’s weren’t armed by F-14 red shirts, they didn’t perform the PLP check, the arming cups were defective and the buffalo’s motors didn’t arm. If you’re going to summarily dismiss facts then you need to show at least some source that supports your position. This incident is well known in the now former tomcat community. I suggest you visit the sunset boards — which is the De facto Tomcat Association boards — where you can talk to actual tomcat crews, ordies and maintainers. I’m sure they’d appreciate your claim of “excuses”. Somehow I don’t think you have the cohunes for that though.

It is absolutely moronic to claim that a particular platform is an abject failure because in ONE incident it failed. Are you not aware that the F-15s also missed with slammers and a sparrow? So if this was the only opportunity for the F-15 to get a kill in American hands then does that prove the F-15 is also an abject failure? (Ignore the Israeli’s for the sake of argument). Apparently sample size and margin of error is quite foreign in this argument.

B.S. Show me where the phoenix seeker has a narrow FOV or any associated high angular rate tracking problems. Also show me how a Foxbat could maneuver effectively to give ANY AAM tracking problems; it’s a 4.5G jet (2+ with full tanks). I’d also love to see how a Foxbat could maneuver effectively and still retain energy to get away. Its strength is speed, if it gets into trouble it should run, it worked most of the time.

The F-15 is a splendid jet, no doubt about it. But it has such an exemplary combat record because it had the opportunity to do so, both in Israeli and US hands. The USN never chose to pursue a MSIP II like package for the F-14 since its mission was blue water oriented (where threat ID was less problematic.) and the navy in general had funding problems for the F-14 program.

BDF

BDF

Sorry i have found a Russian page that says the MiG-25 suffered at least 6 losses during the Iran-Iraq war: До конца 1980 года только четыре иракских летчика смогли освоить новый тип истребителя, а остальные машины по прежнему пилотировали советские инструкторы. Такое положение сохранялось по крайней мере до 1982 года, когда западные аналитики отметили резкое увеличение количества вылетов МиГ-25. Однако боевой дебют оказался неудачным – пилоты иранских F-14 в 1982 году сбили по крайней мере четыре таких самолета. Еще один самолет (МиГ-25ПД) был сбит совместными усилиями F-14 и F-5 в 1983 году. А в июле 1986 года в кабине МиГ-25 погиб иракский ас – Моххамед Райян. По возвращении с задания его самолет подстерегли пара F-5 и пушечным огнем сбила

Prior to the end of 1980 only four Iraqi pilots could master the new MiG-25, and Soviet instructors piloted the remaining machines. This position remained at least until 1982, when western analysts noted a sharp increase in the quantity of MiG-25 combat sorties. However, combat debut proved to be unsuccessful, the pilots of Iranian F-14s in 1982 brought down at least four MiG-25. One additional aircraft MiG-25PD was shot down by joint efforts of F-14s and F-5s in 1983. But in July 1986 in the cabin of a MiG-25 perished the Iraqi ace Mohamed Rayyan. On the return from a mission he was intercepted by a pair F-5s and he was brought down by F-5 cannon fire

Sourcehttp://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig25iraq/mig25_iraq.html
With regard to the loss of coalition aircraft, during the period of hostilities we have the following losses according to what the West is willing to accept : 1 B-52 lost, 1 EF- 111 lost, 1 F-4G lost 2 F-15E lost, 5 F-16 lost, 5 A-10 lost, 1 AC-130 lost, 1 F-14 lost, 1 F/A-18 lost, 4 A-6E lost, 5 AV-8B lost, 2 OH-10 lost, 2 F-5E lost, 1 A-4 lost. 8 Tornado lost, 4 AH-1 lost, 1AH-64 lost, 2 OH-58 lost, 3 UH-60 lost, 1 UH-1 lost, 3 CH-46 lost 2, 1 SH-60 lost.

По данным Министерства обороны СССР, общие потери авиации союзников составили 29 вертолетов и 68 боевых самолетов, в том числе один малозаметный самолет F-117.

According to the Ministry of Defence of the USSR, the total loss of coalition aircraft were 29 helicopters and 68 combat aircraft, including one stealth aircraft . source:http://www.sduto.ru/109/123/2765/index1.3.html

Grumman says the F-14 were basicly useless in Iranian Service and the Iraqis at least claimed 12 F-14 shot down even by MiG-21s and Mirage F1.

see that there are contradictory statements either in russian or american sources

example Во время ирано-иракской войны 1980-1988 гг перехватчики потерь не имели.
During the Iran- Iraqi war 1980-1988 yr the interceptors did not have losses
source http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/pd/mig25pd.htm

however not everything were losses some Russian sources claimed the MiG-25 even shot down F-4s, kfirs, Mirage III and F-14

одержал немало побед над истребителями “Кфир”, “Мираж”, “Фантом”, F-15, даже над иранскими перехватчиками F-14, “Томкет”, созданных в Америке, отчасти, специально для противодействия МиГ-25, причём, почти без потерь. “Чёрным днём” МиГ-25 был Сирийско-израильский конфликт 1982года, когда в ходе боёв в долине Бекаа самолётами F-15 “Игл” были сбиты два МиГ-25, которые, в свою очередь, не записали на свой счёт ни одной победы. Пожалуй, израильский генерал ВВС откровенно лукавил, говоря, что “Не знает, в чём МиГ-25 превосходит F-15 “Игл”.

The MiG-25 achieved numerous air to air victories over the “ IAI Kfir”, “Mirage III”, “ F-4 Phantom”, F -15, even over the Iranian interceptors F-14, “Tomcat”, created in America, partly, it is special for the opposition MiG-25, moreover, almost without MiG-25 losses. “ The Black day” for the MiG-25 was during the Syrian- Israeli conflict of 1982, when in the progress of combat over the Bekka valley the aircraft F-15 “Eagle” Shot down two MiG-25, which, in turn, they wrote down to their calculation not of one victory. Perhaps, the Israeli General of VVS frankly deceived by cunning, speaking, that “he does not know, in that MiG-25 exceeds the F-15 “ Eagle”.

http://skyfireavia.narod.ru/planes/mig25/mig25.htm

По иракским данным, в декабре 1982 лётчик МиГ -25 ПД сбил в окрестностях Багдада иранский истребитель F-5E TIGER. К числу наиболее вероятных побед иранских пилотов относятся достижения одного из них, который сумел в двух воздушных боях в 1985 году сбить два “Фантома”.
В целом Ирак в войне с Ираном использовал “двадцать пятые” весьма интенсивно, но и потери понёс чувствительные, в том числе два МиГ-25 были сбиты дальнобойными ракетами “Феникс” в боях с иранскими F-14 TOMCAT, а один в ближнем бою с F-5.

According to Iraqi data, in December 1982 a pilot MiG-25PD brought down in the region surrounding Baghdad an Iranian F-5E TIGER II. The number of the most probable victories of Iraqi pilots includes achievements of one of them, which knew how in two air battles in 1985 bring down two “Phantom”.
As a whole during the Iraq-Iran war the MiG-25 was intensively employed by Iraq, howeer it also suffered losses, including two MiG-25 that were shot down by long-range rockets “ AIM-54 Phoenix” in combat with Iranian F -14 TOMCAT, and one in the close combat with an F-5.

http://knn.dvvaiu.net/content/view/139/30/

Ha ha, that is funny. The MiG-29 was years behind the originally planned IOC, its radar was not really working as supoposed. The version that entered service in ’82 was somehow preliminary. As often with Russian aircraft, the first real version is that with the M. (never buy the dash 100!)

The only way to keep the MiG-29 somehow on schedule was to take out some technology challenges, for example the relaxed stability thing and FBW (which were both incorporated on the Su-27). Russians and Americans (and the Europeans are also quite good at that) failed in each fighter program since the late 50s to introduce the aircraft somehwere close to its planned IOC.

Schorsh

The MiG-29 as any aircraft is not perfect, no aircraft is build without later modifications to the original design.

Even the F-15 had troubles with the APG-63, it had some structural troubles that limited it to 7Gs in some parts of the flight envelope that were fixed later on the F-15C.

The MiG-29A can out maneuvre the F-16A and does not need FBW, in the West any succes of the Russians is minimized, yeah it is true it does not use FBW but it can still out maneuvre the F-16 and the F-15 😉

The MiG-29 lack of success against the Su-27 or F-15 is its design remained frozen too long without major upgrades and the best 1980`s variant could not enter production, the MiG-29M, today we have a super MiG-29 named MiG-35 the aircraft is old a last ditch in reality the aircraft has been upgraded very slowly unlike the F-15 and even the Su-27

For the F-15 to remain a great aircraft will need weapons in the class of the Python V, AIM-9X and Meteor, without the Meteor and supercruise won`t be able to fight the Eurofighter. and perhaps even the Su-27BM this can mean with the pass of the years the excellent record it has might end up becoming history.

as i said, be my guest.In this very moment, the rest-of- the world lacks a missile equivalent to the AMRAAM (be it the C7, not to mention the D)

Status of programme

METEOR was ordered by the UK MoD and five other European nations (France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden) to meet their future Air-to-Air requirements.

The METEOR contract which involved agreement by all six partner nations, was signed in December 2002. This agreement covers a fixed price contract for the development of METEOR, with production requirements being met on a nation by nation basis.

A full development programme, agreed by all six nations, is already in place and includes the key project milestones that will measure both progress and success. Development will be completed by 2010 followed by the introduction into service on Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen.

sourcehttp://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=123

The firing, the third in the campaign, follows shortly on from firings conducted on 9th May 2006 and 20th June 2006. As with the first two firings, this third missile firing was rail-launched from a SAAB Aerosystems Gripen combat aircraft flying at an altitude of 23,000ft. The flight profile of the missile was, however, different to the previous two firings in order to gather data about Meteor’s operating capability under these specific conditions.

http://www.eads.com/1024/en/pressdb/pressdb/Defence%20&%20Security%20Systems/20060914_mbda_meteor.html

😮 the gripen has meteor? Since when? Just kidding. No plane has the Meteor since this one is in development. the most optimist IOC would be somewere in 2012.

It is true it is not operational but now is on trials aboard the Gripen so in few words the missile already has been fired by the JAS-39

I think that an F 16 with JHMCS/AIM 9X can fight on equal terms too a Su 30, except high altitudes. In Cope India 2005 there were 2 “dogfights” between these planes, and in one of them, the F 16 won.

It is true that in terms of pure performances, the F 16 is under the F 15/Su 30, but it still has some advantages: a superb digital FCS that allow an average pilot to fly the plane very agresively, without bothering with limmitation (AoA and G), good aerodynamics (relaxed stability, the extra lift from the strakes an the body, the leading edge flap system adds a lot to performance by reducing drag at high alpha and buffet).

As two, fomer Viper pilots put it on F 16.net:

The CCIP-enhanced F 16s (blk. 40/42 and 50/52) has upgraded radar (APG 68(V)9), digital RWR, upgraded ALQ 184 jammers, IFF (allowing for the first time the Viper to attack without a clearence from AWACS/GCI), Sniper pod (dedicated AA modes), JHMCS/9X, etc. Also two great engines (229/12)

I do agree today`s F-16I or F-15I are basicly armed the same, if you want me to tell you what is the Hottest thing out there technologically speaking from my humble opinion i would say the Eurofighter and the Gripen.

In 2007 to my personal point of view the best fourth generation is the Eurofighter, followed by the cheap Gripen why? well the Gripen has Meteors AMRAAM and ASRAAMs .

No other fighter offer better weapons in 2007 except the Rafale.

The MiG-29OBT is an excellent machine, the finest gun dogfighter but lacks weapons in the class of the Meteor and in the class of the ASRAAM.

The F-15 and F-16 also need to carry the Meteor i know the F-35 does.

But as far as combat record the F-15 remains the best of all them all.

Sometimes you can’t choose.

That it is true, however i do not see too much likeliness to that kill, unless the kill was made while it was taking off of landing but i am not incline to believe them, the MiG-25 pilot knows only speed and BVR missiles are the strong points of the MiG-25 below Mach 1 the MiG-25 is not as quick agile or maneouvrable as the F-5 or many other fighters, its agility is frankly defficient, so i think most likely never happened because i do not think the Iranians had air superiority as the USAF and RAF had over Germany in 1944-1945 when the P-51 used to kill Me-262s at take off and landings Specially when the kill was made with guns, i can believe a F-16 shot down one with an AMRAAM or the F-15s with Sparrows or AIM-120 but a F-5 with a gun i doubt it, i mean sound more like a fable than a fact, i do not discard the posibility, it is up to a degree possible to happen but basicly it is very unlikely it happened as a result of superiority of the F-5 over the MiG-25

😉

However the MiG-25 can fly at Mach 2.35 for almost 30 minutes because it has a range of 1250km at the speed of Mach 2.35
Практическая дальность полёта, км на сверхзвуковой скорости (М=2.35) 1250
на дозвуковой скорости 1730

source and quotation http://airbase.ru/hangar/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/

So as you can see it is not going to be easy for a F-4 even having AIM-7Fs to hit the MiG-25,

That is the greatness of the F-15, its radar speed and range allowed it to shoot down MiG-25s, the F-4 in that sense never had a chance because of the F-4 first it is slower, has a less impresive performance and turn rate and inferior radar and avionics.

See that of the more than 100 air to air kills atributed to the F-15, only 5 are MiG-25s so it tells you killing a Foxbat by no means is easy specially when it is armed and can fight back with AA-6s.
Consider that even the US NAVY F-14s and F-18 armed with better weapons failed where the F-15 succeded

Sigh….I’m very saddened by the fact that yet again you ignore everything I say and yet again you attempt to prove me wrong by putting forth an argument to counteract a point which I never made in the first place….you’ve simply ignored my advice and you seem set in your ways. This is a very sad thing indeed…..

First let me say I made it a point to mention the F-4 would not be as good as intercepting a MiG-25 as an F-15. So why do you think I said it would be easy? You actually said “so you can see it is not going to be easy”, as if I made that statement. Why would you do such a thing? I never said that at all….

The greatness of the F-15 is its radar, speed, and range, but those were not the sole reasons it was able to get a few MiG-25 kills. I clearly outline the circumstances of the two MiG-25PD’s shot down by IDF/AF F-15’s, and you just ignore my comments completely……why would you do such a thing?

Regarding your comments on the F-4, yes it is slower, but relative to the MiG-25 it is not that much slower than the F-15. The Eagle cannot maintain the high speeds of the MiG-25 for as long as the Foxbat can either so I ask what is your point? I also ask you what does an inferior turn rate on the F-4 as compared to the F-15 have to do with shooting down a high-flying, fast-moving MiG-25 Foxbat? Nothing. In fact, the F-4 itself is still a more agile airplane than the MiG-25, but that is not the point in this case. The F-4’s radar? Yes, it was inferior to that of the F-15. I never said it wasn’t.

The bottom line is this. If you had replaced the F-15’s that shot down the two MiG-25PD’s with F-4E’s and given the F-4’s the newer AIM-7F missile, and used the same tactics (i.e. RF-4’s or another aircraft as bait) as well as working in conjunction with Hawk SAM’s and AWACS aircraft, then you could very well have had a few MiG-25 kills by IDF/AF F-4’s. Would it have been more difficult for the Phantom to have success than the F-15? Without doubt, but the fact that F-4’s with no other assistance were able to get missiles up somewhere close to high-flying reccce MiG-25’s (using zoom climb tactics of course which I don’t think the F-15’s had to do in the case of engaging the fighter MiG-25PD’s….somebody correct me if I’m wrong), does say something about the ability of the Phantom to still provide a decent interception capability though not as good as that of the F-15.

Your last comment about the number of MiG-25 kills by the F-15 also makes little sense. The fact that so few were shot down is twofold….1. Far, far fewer MiG-25’s than any other type of MiG type encountered by the Eagle (or Phantom), and 2. the MiG-25’s speed allows it to get out of many bad situations against slower fighters (which both the F-15 and F-4 would be). The MiG-25 Foxbat is a difficult airplane to intercept, and a well-flown Foxbat is a threat to just about any fighter (including the F-15) and this was proven by the interception of Scott Speecher’s F/A-18 Hornet in the 1991 Gulf War.

My overall point in all of this is again to ask you to please stop ignoring what others say and then counteracting arguments that they never made…..

I don’t think the F-4 is as good an interceptor as the F-15, and I never said that. I never said it would be as efficient at intercepting the MiG-25, and yet you seem hell bent on proving me wrong as if I actually did say that. I’m simplyg trying to say that the F-4 would have in no way been easily “dealt with” by the MiG-23, and in the right circumstances it could have had some success (though not as much as the Eagle) in combating the MiG-25.

Phantom II

I got your points but you did not want to see what i was saying is without the F-15, the MiG-25s would had very likely shot down many F-4s, IAI Kfirs, A-4s, F-16s, the MiG-23 would had it very easily, i could had chosen when to fight and engage and when to run away and stay out of the fray, the F-15 forced the Syrian MiG-23 pilots to dogfight when they already knew they had no advantage over the Israeli F-16s at close combat.
The MiG-23s were cornered, the F-15 forced the MiG-23s to dogfight F-16s something that the Syrian pilots knew was madness; the F-15 forced the MiG-25s to stay way of the fight.

The F-15 in few words changed totaly the situation in Israel`s favour, the F-4 was niether superior to the MiG-23 at close range or superior to the MiG-25 at BVR combat, basicly the F-4 would had experience a similar situation to what the MiG-23 experienced with the F-15 and F-16 team tactics if there would not have been F-15s.