My god you are lost.
AWG-9 Detect-track up to 24 targets with displaying of 18 and actively tracking 6.
APG-10 tracks 10. How the f… is that lower that 6?
Anyway you live in a bubble of you own fantasy.
I propose to have this locked and you banned.
he is not doing anything wrong or against the Forum rules.
He is proving his points with good documents and sources.
Learn to have better soruces instead of claiming foulplay when it is not.
Duh! At least one of the photographers asked one of the pilot’s the exact type of MiG-23 that he was photographing. The pilot referred to it as the MLD. Remember that these images were unique and quite a surprise as many thought that that Libya didn’t operate the ML variant. The only thing that you have come up with it that they were all delivered post January 1989!
As I have told you before the MLs in Libya were known about in the mid-1980s. Does the EP-3E exist? Yes. Have you seen any Russian intercept images of it from the Barents Sea? Do the images of the Russian intercepting aircraft exist in U.S. Navy archives? Of course. Why is it so hard for you to understand that not every image is taken for the the purpose of aviation enthusiasts.
I’ve published the dates for the next LAVEX as it will again probably draw enthusiasts and photographers. Enthusiasts ask questions, so what is to stop them from asking how long the ML has been in service?
TJ
I think the only surprised by the MiG-23ML in Libyan service was you see this russian webpage
first they stablish Libya bought MiG-23MS in 1974
В 1974г. МиГ-23МС появились в Ливии
http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/units.pl?field=3&unit=2040&page_num=4&page_max=8
later in the order of battle they have the MiG-23P in the arsenal of the Libyan air force
Армии мира. Ливия
Самолетный и вертолетный парк: 6 Ту-22, 130 МиГ-23 (БН, У и П), 48 Мираж-5 (D, DE, DD и DR), 29 Мираж-Р.
source http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state&mode=show&unit=6056
If you know very well the Libyan MiG-23s are basicly MiG-23ML since they lack the wing glove notch , the MiG-23ML is basicly a MiG-23P, the article stablishes that Libya had a light MiG-23 variant.
The MiG-23MLD export variant lacks also the glove wing notch, like those of Syria and Bulgaria.
However all the MiG-23MLA MiG-23P and MiG-23MLD are bascly derivatives of the MiG-23ML
„Zum letzten Mal hatte Libyen 1987 russische Waffen in großen Mengen gekauft. Nun ist Zeit für eine Umrüstung“, sagte Konstantin Makijenko vom Zentrum für Strategie- und Technologieanalyse.
14:52 | 04/ 05/ 2007 MOSKAU, 04. Mai (RIA Novosti)
A short translation:
The last time Libya bought Russian weapons in quantity was 1987.
By quantity means in large numbers, not that Libya did not buy any more weapons from the USSR and it does not stablish the delivery date for what weapons in few words you have not solve anything about the delivery of the MiG-23MLs to Libya
Wait a minute, have you not figured out yet that there was camera footage from two different F-14s?
:rolleyes:
Wait a minute, if the MiG-23 was in the gun sight of one of the F-14s at a very close range why it does not show the moment when it was shot? why we have to have the other F-14`s camera and the MiG-23 explotion is very far away?
By logic the F-14 that shot it has the film where the MiG-23 explodes, but it is not in that video conclusion it is an edited video
While the educated user might ask, why aircraft so disabled like the MiG-23MS get involved in such an engagement. Furthermore, in order to find the F-14 and take a direct course on them, they either need a radar with limited look down capabilities or ground guidance.
Ground guidance was unavailable after the F-14 went to 3000ft.The only thing that truly remains strange is the motivation of the pilots in the MiGs. They surely were no novices, and the whole situation was somehow planned (the F-14s did not enter Lybian airspace). So, if a planned mission was executed by the Lybians they either were very stupid or did underestimate the American superiority.
question why there are pictures of F-18s and MiG-23MS and videos of Libyan MiG-25s and MiG-23s and later the F-14s fight them? is not wierd there are pictures like this?
Why the Mig-23ML did not fire their R-24s or R-23s? if they can even fire them with their IRST systems
Stick to the point. You are guessing and do have no idea, when that MiG-23ML were delivered to Libya really. So you are unable to disprove SOC and his claim. By the way, we are in 2008 and the people of that Russian websites have had a lot of time to find out the delivery dates of MiG-23ML to Libya. That has something to do with credibility. 😉
Who is guessing is you, who is unwilling to accept what the vast majority of russian sources say is you, in fact you have no source to prove the Mig-23Mls were delivered in 1987 or before 4 Janaury 1989, you in fact are not showing Sipri`s information like firebar has shown his information.
basicly you want others to believe an assumption without a source
As you demanded, there is a proof of pictures about MiG-23ML in Libyan service as there are ones from Lavex. Cold logic does say, that MiG-23 were built by the Russians only.
No later than 10 years, when the number of flight hours is not reached before, that examples had to sent to depot inst. :diablo:
The problem is, there are no fighter deliveries noted to Libya by SIPRI after 1989. The late SU, CIS and Russia had signed to do so. Whereever that deliveries did come from, it is the duty of Russia to track the whereabouts of all Russian built MiGs to stick to its commitments. ;).
The Problem is you are asumming something which has not proof, Russia could had sent the MiG-23ML in july 1989 or February 1989.
Such thinking does not prove a bit the delivery date.
I can even say Russia sent the MiG-23MLs in January 14th 1989.
Your Sipri example does not fill anything because you have to show the USSR did not sell any MiG-23ML to Libya in 1989 or 1990.
Bring data from 1989 proving the USSR did not deliver MiG-23MLs to Libya
At least from Russian sources the vast majority claim Libya only had MiG-23MS in 1991 and the vast majority say MiG-23MS fought the F-14s.
No picture or film has proved the MiG-23s were indeed MiG-23MLs armed with AA-7s and much less they fired at the F-14s
F-14s kill MiG-23s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0HctAs8TA
ACIG believes that the MLs were likely based at al Bumbah, which was primarily a Syrian-crewed unit:
http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=71&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
If that’s true then they could have been there as far back as 1989 as the two FLOGGERs blown apart by the USN were seen to be toting R-23 or R-24 AAMs. They may have been Syrian aircraft transferred to Libya as replacements for the FLOGGERs donated by Libya to Syria in the early 80’s.
yeah another new theory, the MiG-23s are in two different films, in one at long range and in another the MiG-23 appears very close and later when the missile hits it is very far. I have shown you a supposedly close up that i have already attached in one of my previous posts http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=165084&d=1220568344, how you do know it is not an edited video i can show you another video where you have a MiG-23 and MiG-25, the MiG-25 is also flying very close and also trying to avoid the chasing US navy plane, by the way the quality of the film is bad enough to make you see nothing beyong a wing pylon
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If you read the Russian wikipedia it says the following
Ливия заявила, что МиГи являлись безоружными разведсамолётами, однако съёмки бортовых камер F-14 показывали, что истребители были вооружены ракетами Р-23 (впрочем, ливийцы так и не открыли огня). Инцидент не имел каких-либо долговременных последствий. Достаточно большую известность получили съёмки бортовых камер F-14 в ходе боя, сопровождающиеся записью радиопереговоров экипажей.
That Libya stated these were unarmed recce MiG-23s, however the F-14 gun sight camera showed R-23s, but surprisingly the MiG-23s did not open fire.
This russian article is a bit contradictory with other Russian ones since it questions the fact they were MiG-23MS but raises the questions why they did not fire?
The video you have posted does not show any incoming missile besides what the pilots says.
If it is true there is not a monolithic account also in russian sources, the reality is difficult to show the MiG-23s were really carrying the R-23s and understand why the MiG-23s never fired back?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82_%D0%B2_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B5_%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0
See however the Russian wikipidea is quoting a western source
http://www.ka8vit.com/sd/shootdown.htm
however airwar.ru has a different account
При сходных обстоятельствах в том же районе, над заливом Сидра, F-14 с авианосца “Кеннеди” сбили 4 января 1989 г. два ливийских МиГ-23МС.
It says that on simialr circustances in the Gulf of Sidra on January 4 1989, F-14s from the aircraft carrier Kennedy shot down two Libyan MiG-23MS
Even the Chines considered the early MiG-21F engines to be very unreliable, and ditto when they also got the R-13-300 later. They spent much of their improvement efforts on the engine on enhancing their reliability and flight hour life. Suffice to say, they could never accept the J-7 into service if the engine life is less than that of the J-6’s which already have been doubled. When the J-7 finally came into service on the PLAAF with big numbers, it was already in the -B version and had a number of improvements over the original -F and -FL version such as strengthened wings with hardpoints for fuel tanks.
The Soviet Union don’t seem to have a very good idea what engine life means. Every customer they had are always complaining about that issue. One thing to make peak thrust, another thing to make it last.
In contrast to the Soviet made MiG-19s, the J-6s had a number of improvements that seriously made them better. They confronted issues on reliability such as on the fuel lines and flight controls which had to be regularly replaced on the Russian versions. The flight controls were also improved, and they increased the wing span to lower wing loading and improve low speed performance.
The MiG-21 was a good dogfighter only in its earlier versions. On the third and the fourth, the wing loading issue was getting serious. There is nearly a ton of weight difference between the first and the final version while there is no improvement on the wing area.
As for the Q-5, it was a lot more forgiving and predictable to fly than any J-6 and MiG-19, at the slight penalty in turn rate.
yeah you complaign about the Soviet jets but China built mostly soviet jets and continues buying Russian engines because their own engines are still unreliable, see the J-10 has russian engines, the JF-17/FC-1 has russian engines too.
see this very good sumary of the MiG-19 development
On August 15 1953, the Mikoyan-Gurevich OKB was given a new order to create a frontline fighter. The OKB was asked to create two designs — a single-engined version with the Klimov VK-7 and a twin-engine version with Mikulin AM-9Fs. The twin-engine fighter, internally designated “SM-9″ — but also assigned the production name MiG-19 — was based on the earlier SM-2 prototype. The first airframe, “SM-9/1″ flew on January 5 1954. The afterburner did not light in the first flight, but in the second flight the aircraft reached Mach 1.25 at 26,400 ft (8,050 m). This was improved to Mach 1.44 in subsequent flights. Based on this promising performance, the MiG-19 was ordered into production on February 17 1954, even though government acceptance trials did not start until September of that year. The first production aircraft rolled off the assembly line in March of 1955.
Why do you not listen carefully? Non did claim that the MiG-19 or J-6 were superior dogfighters. But from that in front-line service, the later built J-6 are the most capable of that.
The point is in 1960 the best dogfighetr was the F-5 and MiG-21s, from my point of view, youeven have posted a J-6 shot down by a MiG-21
Not my task, but yours. You are the one, who does claim, that the Russian sources are as reliable as Western ones and not the other way around. 😀
That Floggers are there. :diablo:
why do not you admit you can not get those details? you play the smat card, but you have no evidence for your own statements
A source from Russia!? Come on Flogger – catch a grip. Some guy on a Russian site makes a claim and you present it in an attempt to back up your arguement. Remember all the Ukrainian and Russian media (aircraft magazines) claims of scores of Israeli F-15 and F-16s shot down in 1982?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that the MLs were known about in the mid-1980s? Just because an intercept image hasn’t been released doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. How hard is it for you to understand that those images are not taken for the purposes of aviation enthusiasts? Think about how many Soviet & Russian intercept images of NATO aircraft have never been released?
One of the guys who took the images at LAVEX spoke to one of the Libyan pilots. The pilot confirmed that they were MLD variants.
Hopefully some of the guys who went to LAVEX in Libya last year will return. I know some of them from photographic forums, so I will ask for them to possibly ask the question of when they first received the variant.
http://www.wahaexpo.com/lavex2007/
5th to 8th October 2009 are the next dates for LAVEX.
TJ
yeah yeah more of the same, why do not you visit forums like airwar.ru. waronline.ru, airforce.ru, foxbat.ru or strizhi.ru? you are just another guy who claims this and that and is uncapable to read russian and see the other side and if you do not believe the Russians have good and reliable sites look at this ones
a lot of pictures of aircraft shot down even some of the pilots who were shot down
http://www.rusihubara.ru/kavkaz.html
http://www.skywar.ru/18ZRDV.html
http://www.skywar.ru/Lebanon.html
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/lebanon-losses.htm
http://www.otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w2/lebanon11.jpg
Look at this see your famous sources never mention these details
By the way presenting me the LAVEX webpage does not solve a bit when they got them, reliable sources can only solve them.
Actually there’s the arms embargo for one thing, they’d have had to have taken delivery before it was put in place. Beyond that, I haven’t had time to look for a real source just yet, it’s too convenient and easy to find someone’s amateur site and pass it off as a real, credible source of information.
You know what i can see is you claim some one elses is an amateour and you can not give a credible source about when the MiG-23MLs were delivered.
Who then is the amateur who has no answer, who is no Russian, who has no date, who even does not give a date taken the fact LAVEX probably has shed some light about the MiG-23s in Libyan service?
If you are not an amateur i suggest you give a date for the delivery of the MiG-23ML to Libya.
Speculation is not of proffesionals but of amateurs.
At least is more probable that those Russian sources have more credible sources since Russia is the nation where MiG-23 was made.
Find a picture of a Libyan MiG-23ML taken by the US navy where they have the date when the picture was taken specially prior to 1989, or a statemnet by the Libyan air force saying when they got the MiG-23ML , or Sipri`s data or in the worst case a Russian source saying when Libya got the MiG-23s.
So far i have presented you a source, what source have you presented? picture by US navy? No!, Statement by the Libyan air force? No! Sipri`s data for the 1980s? No!, Russian source? No!
I see you have just presented speculation.
That is not enough from your side and your are aware of that. Since the 90s the CIS and Russia did note its military exports to SIPRI in Stockholm. The last important delivery to Libya were the Su-24 in 1989. So it is up to the Russians to note the delivery date of MiG-23ML f.e. to Libya.
You do like logic as you did claim before.
In The Military Balance 1979-1980 from IISS Libya is quoted with 24 MiG-23 Flogger E and 5 MiG-25 in a recce unit crewed by Russians.
In 1980-1981 a further 26 Flogger were added and 35 MiG-25 interceptors.
In 1989-90 a total of 131 Flogger in the fighter variant, 28 BN, the first 6 Su-24 and 55 MiG-25 interceptors, the recce ones aside.
What 1982 was to Syria it was to Libya in 1986. At the end of the 80s the MiG-29 was freed for export. Why to restrict to the inferior MiG-23ML?
If the Russians have given that data it would not be difficult to know when, then find the answer and tell us. Prove the Russian sources are wrong
And again, a MiG-23MS being shot down by an F-14 does not disprove the existance of a MiG-23ML. Or does it disprove the existance of Libyan FOXBATs as well? I guess Libya had no MiG-25Ps until 1991 either, right? Do you see how asinine that logic sounds?
Once more where is the proof of that once more where are the sources saying and proving they had MiG-23ML prior to 1989