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MiG-23MLD

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  • in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2500225
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Did you bother to look at how current that article is? Do you have anything that’s more recent than ’96-’98, with regards to the performance of the Super Hornet?

    The F-18E began initial production in 1997 and entered initial operational service in 1999 and was totally accepted by February 2000.

    So they have not changed in aerodynamics and performance even if you want to justify it.

    The aircraft has just recently gotten the JHMCS systems and the AIM-9X capability.

    As a weapon system is a mediocre airframe with advanced weapons for a 2008 air superiority fighter

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2500325
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    -the E/F have greater range and speed, and more carefree handling.
    -the E/F have lower RCS than the C/D. the reductions weren’t just to return the RCS to that of the earlier Hornets.
    -the KS-172 if and when it ever reaches the market, is an anti-AWACS weapon. It’s not gonna have a 400km range against a fighter, and I’ve yet to hear that it’s designed to counter non-cooperative high manuevering targets.

    The F/A-18E has not even the same turn rate of the F-18C, it is not better, and armed with weapons it is not a aircraft that can keep a low RCS since all its weapons are carried externally, they reduced the RCS to increase the weapons carriage capability besides that the aircraft will advertise it self easily, that is the reason it will be replaced by the F-35, they know that fully armed the aircraft is a big billboard in the sky

    the E/F’s limited improvement in engine thrust, coupled
    with the fact that the E/F is a larger aircraft than the C/D, results
    in the E/F having less air-to-air combat capability in sustained turn
    rate, maneuvering, and acceleration than the C/D.

    See more

    Aircraft acceleration affects an aircraft’s combat performance in a
    number of ways, ranging from how quickly the aircraft can reach its
    area of operation to its ability to close the gap in air-to-air
    engagements or to evade air-to-ground missiles. Navy data shows the
    following:

    — At 5,000 feet at maximum thrust, the F/A-18C accelerates from
    0.8 Mach to 1.08 Mach7 in 21 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E will
    take 52.8 seconds.

    — At 20,000 feet at maximum thrust, the F/A-18C accelerates from
    0.8 Mach to 1.2 Mach in 34.6 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E takes
    50.3 seconds.

    — At 35,000 feet at maximum thrust, the F/A-18C accelerates from
    0.8 Mach to 1.2 Mach in 55.80 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E takes
    64.85 seconds. The F/A-18C accelerates from 0.8 Mach to 1.6
    Mach in 2 minutes
    12 seconds, whereas the F/A-18E takes 3 minutes and 4 seconds

    and that is not the end of the story

    Sustained turn rate,4 maneuvering,5 and acceleration contribute to
    an aircraft’s combat performance and survivability by increasing its
    ability to maneuver in either offensive or defensive modes. Navy
    data6 comparing the F/A-18C to the F/A-18E shows the following:

    — At sea level, the F/A-18C’s sustained turn rate is 19.2 degrees
    per second, while the F/A-18E’s sustained rate is 18 degrees per
    second. The instantaneous bleed rate of the F/A-18C is 54 knots
    per second, whereas the F/A-18E will lose 65 knots per second in
    a turn.

    — At 15,000 feet, the F/A-18C’s sustained turn rate is 12.3
    degrees per second, while the F/A-18E’s sustained rate is 11.6
    degrees per second. The instantaneous bleed rate of the F/A-18C
    is 62 knots per second, whereas the F/A-18E will lose 76 knots
    per second in a turn.

    http://www.fas.org/man/gao/ns96098.htm

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2500337
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Much like the LM site doesn’t continuously update figures on the F-35, the Boeing site gives very rough figures.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-18.htm

    (scroll down to mid page in the comparison charts between the F-18C/D w/ the F-18E/F (more than M 1.8)

    http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/fa-18ef_super_hornet.pl

    (M 1.8+)

    http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

    (M 1.8)

    http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1200&ct=1

    (M 1.8+)

    Are you noticing a trend?

    The F/A-18E is no more than a reduced inlet RCS F-18C with heavier weapons load keeping the same speed and agility, updated with better missiles, but still an old platform.
    The aircraft is not a stealth aircraft and is not more agile than the F/A-18C, its inlets had a reduced RCS design to reduce its RCS increase due to a larger external weapons load and general size
    http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/f/fa18e_headon.jpg
    J-10 is not much modern either since it is modernized Lavi, but in agility and performance is better and wait a few years more and it will surpass the F/A-18E in weaponry already it is a better fighter in terms of aerodynamics and performance.

    New designs from russia and china like the K-30 and KS-172 will leave the current western weapons obsolete

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2451784
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Sorry, while your J-10 maybe more agile in some aspects. It hardly is a Superior Platform to the Super Hornet. (F/A-18E/F) Really, your kidding your self if you believe Chinese Avaionics or Weapons are equal to the US. With all do respect……..

    I think you are just belittling an aircraft just without any real base, the J-10 is a very modern platform, true the AIM-120 in latest variants has longer range and the AIM-9X is a better weapon than the PL-9 or R-74.

    But your have no base to say the Chinese J-10 and Su-30MKK are inferior.

    As an airplane the J-10 is more capable, its avionics are more or less on par to western modern avionics and its weapons are good enough to assure victory if flown well.

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2451884
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Top Speed= running out of gas pretty quick

    Acceleration is important, but in a head on shot, it just closes the distance faster, improving the pK.

    AIM-9X vs.

    http://www.aviationnow.com/shownews/03paris/hard01.htm

    “The new code will add a ‘lock-on after launch’ (LOAL) mode to the missile. LOAL could allow the AIM-9X to be launched at a beyond visual range (BVR) target, to engage a target behind the launch airplane”

    http://www.deagel.com/Air-to-Air-Missiles/R-73_a001033001.aspx

    http://www.deagel.com/Air-to-Air-Missiles/AIM-9X-Sidewinder_a001166003.aspx

    Going slow means also less range and kinetic energy, the J-10 might not have at the moment an AIM-9X equivalent but still with supermaneuvrability will work as a head seeker on a AIM-9X, that is the whole point, the aircraft can point the nose at the intended target, it is not limited as you think, same is the Su-30MKI, the only difference is in the AIM-9X makes a mediocre lumbering not agile fighter as good as a very good and agile J-10, so more or less both aircraft are matched, the F-18E might have a slight advantage but not as you think. and in BVR speed is life so the F-18E is pretty much dead meat too and it is also bigger and easier to spot.
    however the J-10 has a plus when it is avoiding an AAM like the AIM-9X or R-74 since it has more chances of getting away and being safe because agility is also life the F-18E won`t do it as well as the J-10 when you need to dodge a missile

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2451911
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    You honestly believe the best exchange ratio the SH could manage in BVR is 2:1? Top speeds aren’t relevant in combat. What speed will the J-10 fight at? It’s speed and agility won’t be enough to escape a C7/D.
    As for the AIM-9X, not only does it have greater agility, and off boresight capabilities, but it’s also much longer ranged(which also helps mitigate any slight advantages the J-10 might have in turns).

    the AIM-9X has not a better range than the R-73 and top speeds are relevant in Combat, since top speeds mean the speed and acceleration you can run away or get in missile range, it means the F-18E pilot has less time to fire the longer range missile and will be in missile range of the enemy in lesser time

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2451930
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    So at any airspeed, the J-10 has an advantage? Remember- the F-18 has better low speed manuevering than the F-16, and considerably better high Alpha maneuvering. If you combine better instantaneous nose pointing, with JHMCS, and AIM-9X, it won’t matter if the J-10 has some advantages in agility.

    So what you’re saying is that if the J-10 and SU-30MKKs survive BVR against superior missiles, then they have some advantages in WVR, and then only against a poorly flown Super Hornet.

    The advantages in agility by the J-10 are important, since they cover the limitations of the missile head seeker those extra 6 deg/s in turn mean several more deg of off bored capability for the PL-8, R-73 or PL-9, the F-18E certainly will use the AIM-9X but the superior agility of the J-10 will counter act the better seeker, its faster speed will make it a more elusive target at BVR.

    The F-18E is heavier than its original earlier version and it has poor acceleration. the J-10 follows the MiG-29 philosophy faster and more agile so this will work against having a better BVR missile.

    Also 24 F-18Es won`t beat 150 J-10s, they might have at the most a 1:2 kill ratio but won`t be enough to beat the fleet of J-10s

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2451956
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    So what you’re saying is that the J-10 has comparable avionics to an F-18C, and a less capable BVR weapon than the AIM-120C/D, and less capable WVR missile than the AIM-9X. What airspeed is the J-10 travelling when it’s outturning the Super Hornet(or is it able to do this at any airspeed?) What’s the AoA limitations of the J-10?

    The F-18E won`t beat in agility or performance the J-10, that already is a fact, the F-18E is not better in agility to the F-18C and the J-10 is in the class of the JAS-39NG or better in agility so you can expect a turn rate better than a F-16 or marginally better than a MiG-29.

    The J-10 is faster and more agile, it is smaller so more difficult to spot visually a crucial element if you use a HMS.

    And F-18E only has longer range missiles beyond that the aircraft is not match, since it is not faster, has not better performance and has not better agility and you forget China uses Su-30MKK with longer range AA-10s.

    So while the F-18E is fighting at BVR Su-30MKKs it will be fight at WVR by J-10s

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452000
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Care to back these assertions up. The J-10’s avionics are in the same league as the APG-79/ATFLIR, and the AAMS match the AIM-120C7/D, AIM-9X?
    What’s the instantaneous/sustained turned rate of the J-10(loaded with weapons), turn radius, etc..?

    In turn rate the J-10 will beat any time the F-18E, also it has HMS and in radar technology it`s comparable to 1990s western technology and still will use the PL-12 which is basicly better than the average AIM-120A and B, the R-73 and the PL-9 are less capable true but the J-10 is more agile and in a head on encounter equal to the F-18E/AIM-9X combo

    At this moment in time the F-18s Australia has are not a match and China is also working in air to air missiles of longer range.

    Besides in performance the F-18E is inferior to the J-10 and with weapons still is a conventional aircraft in RCS, and F-18C won`t beat the J-10

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452050
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I believe the point was the Quality of Equipment? So, plane for plane Australia would do very well. As for numbers the RAAF would operate along side Allied Forces that are Equipped with very similar Hardware. So, India’s or China’s numerical advantage would matter much less.

    That is not true quality, China operates more than 130 J-10s which is already as capable as the F-18E, add up training and China will have the advantage since the PL-12 matches the AIM-120 and the J-10 will out turn the F-18E add up numbers the chinese will beat the Australians.

    India has the Su-30MKI that will beat easily the F-18C and match the F-18E and in some aspects surpass it.

    beyond the sense of superiority Australia is not match, niether in technology neither is superior in training.

    besides the possible use of long range surface to surface missiles to destroy air bases is a threat Australia can not repel beyond making other runways but the F-18s are not jump jets so still need long runways..

    India and China operate with their own satellites and have their own research in air to surface missiles and fifth generation technology aircraft.

    Australia is not match, the only thing you are not understanding is without the US or England, Australia is not match for India or China

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452076
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Ok, just to clarify something about how many F-18’s Australia have…

    We have i believe about 70 of them, mostly A’s and few B’s

    In regards to us having less than 30 F-18E’s as per your above statement, you are dead wrong…. We don’t have any and most likely wont have any.

    If you were refering to the ones we have bought / ordered, again we did not buy any F-18E’s, but yes we bought less than 30 F-18F’s – 24 off them.

    and how many J-10s, JH-7s, Su-30MKKs and Su-27s China has? or how many Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, MiG-29s and Sepecat Jaguar India has.

    The whole point you can not compare an air force like Australia with an air force like India or China because these two major powers build their own aircraft and out number Australia more than 5:1 in most of major aircraft without counting aircraft like the MiG-27s and the J-8II.

    Certainly already India has almost the same number in MiG-29s of what Australia has in F-18s and China only in Su-30MKKs already reaches similar numbers

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452089
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I know not everyone on here speaks english as they’re primary language, but look at what I said again and re-think your position please.

    I said modern wars between two military giants, not these skirmishes we have been seeing such as the exact cases that you pointed out, thank you very much.

    It was not a matter of language but a matter of your intentions, you are implying that all wars are like that and you fail to recognize there are several types of wars, major nuclear powers war in example Russia vs China or US versus Russia; a nuclear power versus non a nuclear power in example US vs Iraq, Russia vs Georgia and non nuclear powers fighting other non nuclear powers wars like the Iran Iraq war or Peru vs Ecuador, in the last two obviously the nation making aircraft will always win and making the best ones will win, nations having fewer and less advanced aircraft or without aircraft manufacturing capability will lose

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452091
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    And the deeper sense of that claim? The countries with smaller AFs will better not attack much bigger ones or do join something like the NATO f.e. 😀

    This is happening already, Russia has become the bodyguard of nations like Iran, Syria, Venezuela and the core Nation of the Chinese-Russian alliance since basicly the Russians have more advanced technology and more nukes,

    The War in Goergia was already a threat to NATO expansion, and a creation of an Axis Moscow-Damascus-Teheran and to a lesser extend Moscow-Caracas-Habana.

    India still is in the balance, both sides pushing to lure it in their camp

    Russia is already pushing many middle east nations to take sides.

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452201
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Wasnt WWIII expected to be a war of attrition and whoever ended up in the best position in three weeks or so would be the victor? (non-nuclear of course)

    A modern war, not these skirmishes that we are used to seeing, but a modern war between two military giants will end in both sides being completely depleted unless a truce is called before hand. Modern Industry, at its current size/limitations, can not keep pace with the speed at which a war like this would be fought. Period.

    If your statement applies to wars like the invasion of grenada or Panama by the US or even the invasion of Iraq and operation allied force then the US would had lost all its aircraft the US has lost less than 100 aircraft in those wars, Russia did not lose a large amount of aircraft in its recent war with Georgia and the Losses by the Soviet Union versus afghanistan never put in risk the Soviet air force and it was similar in the Iraq-Iran war
    however the minor air forces saw themselves defeated and without any chance of winning

    in reply to: Possible futire Air wars #2452231
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Are you kidding me? Trying to be funny maybe? 100 planes a year is NOTHING in a modern war, nothing. That will not even come close to attrition replacement. You just proved my point. You fight with what you start with, period.

    41 F-16’s in one year? In a modern war that could be lost in a matter of hours or days…

    You are flat out wrong.

    Tell me how Many F-18s has Australia? How many Mirage 2000 has Brazil?
    How many F-14 Iran has? how many MiG-29s Syria has?

    The reality is an air force like the US, China or Russia have several hundreds of fourth generation fighters and the vast majority of air forces in the world have less than 50 fourth generation aircraft.

    Russia, the US and China can easily replace losses in a war with a minor air force.

    to put it in few words an air force like those of Colombia or Argentina have no fourth generation aircraft and less than 50 air superiorirty fighters tell me how an air force like that can combat the USAF or Russia?

    Australia only have less than 30 F-18Es, China can replace the J-10 losses in months after launching an attack, Australia will lost all its aircraft in few days but the chinese will replace 30 J-10s in 3 or 4 months in a war economy

    By the way the US had built around 800 F-14s 2000 F-18s, 1400 F-15s and 4500 F-16s in 30 years calculate how many aircraft a month? see we are not counting the A-10 production niether the harrier production or other types of aircraft

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 2,930 total)