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Amiga500

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January 6, 2011 at 9:03 pm in reply to: Chinese J-XX/14/20 p.2 #2331363

Amiga500
Participant

so cockpit details are still classified:cool:

I think they were inadvertently shown a couple of months back…

I’m sure the eagle-eyed will note the head-on outline of the aircraft in the left-bottom MFD…

January 6, 2011 at 1:24 pm in reply to: Chinese J-XX/14/20 p.2 #2331975

Amiga500
Participant

Does anyone have a view of the wing planform?

To try and get an estimate for Mach cone (approx design speed), wing area (wing loading) and maybe get a feel for what this thing is really designed for…

January 6, 2011 at 1:16 pm in reply to: Export orders J-20 vs PAK-FA??? #2331981

Amiga500
Participant

When the F15 was first introduced, the Israeli used it to detect, engage and kill Syrian Mig 21 while evading detection by the enemy because they had just scored the first BVR kill in history.

Are you saying they evaded detection because it was the first BVR kill in history?

Reconfiguring the Boeing airborne laser to detect, engage, and kill fighter over long distances will not make it a 5th gen aircraft anymore than is a AWAC system even if implemented in a fighter (like the USN F18 prowler… ok not exactly a AWAC but still).

But yet it would still have better kill ratios than any “5th gen” fighter going by your self-imposed yardstick.

I know which I’d rather have on my side…

F16 can fly with jamming systems to prevent the enemy from using effectively their radar and so detect, engage, and kill while helping the friendly to do so… F-16s are not 5th gen…

But the enemy can detect the jamming.

That doesn’t exactly reconcile with the statement I made:

“A 5th gen fighter can detect engage and kill its targets while evading detection by the enemy.”

Note that detection =/= localisation.

January 6, 2011 at 10:00 am in reply to: Export orders J-20 vs PAK-FA??? #2332111

Amiga500
Participant

A 5 Gen fighter is an aircraft that uses stealth in order to ensure dominance of the battlefield by been able to detect, engage and kill its targets while evading detection by the enemy (and so the engage and kill never happen). That’s for me the basic definition.

See, now I think that is an example of having it **** about face.

Is it about having an ability, or how that ability is achieved?

I would write:
A 5th gen fighter can detect engage and kill its targets while evading detection by the enemy.

I would never mention the means of accomplishing that, as it is largely irrelevant.

Be it passive or active means of disrupting detection or engagement from outside the OpFor’s detection envelope – it doesn’t matter. Would you say a fighter that can kill any current fighter with a laser while outside the enemy’s radar range is a step backward from 5th gen? (because it doesn’t meet the LO requirement you’ve set?)

January 5, 2011 at 9:47 am in reply to: "Super Hornet better than Harrier, Tornado and Typhoon" #2333207

Amiga500
Participant

and there are plenty of anecdotes from respectable pilots that the plane is nowhere near a sluggish performer.

The sustained turning performance figures that cropped up a while back stick out like a sore thumb.

Yes, dynamic performance is, and will be good. Due to the small wing span and low aspect ratio, you would fully expect good roll response and roll rates. Pitch response should also be good due to the size of the horizontal tail as a ratio of the wing area.

But… due to the same small wing you would expect poor energy bleed. That (very) low sustained turn performance would seem to bear that out.

With a good T/W ratio, and due to the bay a better T/D ratio, the F-35 should out-accelerate a loaded Viper – but… only in a straight line or mild turns (due to that wing). How many dogfights allow you to fly in a straight line?

Oh, and once the drop tanks and most of the munitions are gone, then the Viper would be back to ruling the energy envelope (c.f. the F-35).

The F-35 is not a bad aircraft, it just is not a step above the F-16. The F-22 on the other hand, is a significant step above the F-15 in all areas of the flight envelope; indeed, its also a lot better than the F-16 in all areas bar maximum roll rate (short F-16 wingspan helps quite a bit here).

If we assume the PAK-FA is about as good* as the F-22 as a maneuvering platform – then the F-35 is simply in deep trouble if it has to try and maneuver with a PAK-FA.

*Note, if there is a difference, it is not unreasonable to assume it is in the PAK-FA’s favour due to the various compromises Sukhoi have made against LO for better maneuvering.

January 5, 2011 at 9:33 am in reply to: "Super Hornet better than Harrier, Tornado and Typhoon" #2333210

Amiga500
Participant

SO, again, who’s more qualified than LM to define stealth?

LM are qualified to say what the RCS of something is, no doubt about that.

However, with regards their own aircraft; marketing will get involved and manipulate the numbers to suit themselves. Believing otherwise is a bit naive, don’t you think? 🙂

Other (European) companies, such as BAe, Dassault, EADS and Saab have built LO prototypes – unmanned some may be, but the facilities and knowledge to determine their radar signatures still exists.

Obviously in the States, Northrop have built LO aircraft as have Boeing.

Given the existence of the PAK-FA and J-20, one would also have to say knowledge on LO techniques is not confined to North America or Europe.

There are many organisations around the world qualified to talk about what is or is not LO. But, any organisation talking about their own aeroplane has a blatant conflict of interest; hence why so many on this board are very reluctant to take any such press release (from LM regarding the F-35) at face value.

January 5, 2011 at 9:24 am in reply to: Export orders J-20 vs PAK-FA??? #2333217

Amiga500
Participant

I say this because the NG doesn’t exist. just a Gripen Demo.

Oh, I thought the production line was pretty much ready to go if anyone ordered…. :confused:

(i.e. in answer to the original question; if you want a 5th gen fighter for under $50m, order the NG)

January 5, 2011 at 9:19 am in reply to: Chinese J-XX/14/20 p.2 #2333222

Amiga500
Participant

I see it similar. Without a capable domestic engine it is a technology demonstrator at first.

Assuming they don’t get an export license.

Stranger things have happened… who would have imagined the Soviets getting the Nene for the MiG-15?

January 4, 2011 at 11:43 pm in reply to: what aircraft can be considered over engineered? #2333399

Amiga500
Participant

depends on the fuel consumption and size of fuel tanks which we can not see from the outside, for all we know it has a small fuel tank but the rest of the space is used to store air to air missiles for point defense duties.

True, we don’t know for 100%…

However, it is not an unreasonable assumption to assume its fuel fraction is far higher than the F-22.

PAK-FA? Not sure how it would compare exactly… The Flanker series had a pretty decent fuel fraction too.

January 4, 2011 at 11:37 pm in reply to: Export orders J-20 vs PAK-FA??? #2333401

Amiga500
Participant

so why exactly do they whack the Vipers?

Well… since there is potentially 4x the emitter strength for each receiver to pick up on, the effective radar range of each individual Gripen increases (if it was perfect scaling, it would double if I remember the EM eqns correctly).

Thus, if both sides are active, the Gripens detect earlier.

If both sides are passive, the Gripen NG force has an IRST each, and can cross communicate any OpFor EM emissions to triangulate positions. The F-16 force doesn’t. Again, the Gripens detect earlier.

As we all know, first look = dictate the fight. Kinematically, both packages are quite evenly balanced so the F-16 cannot overcome its initial disadvantage of not being able to dictate the fight.

(We can assume equal munitions as its an airframe comparison – if you don’t like that, then the Meteor on Gripen beats the AMRAAM on the F-16 by a significant margin.)

January 4, 2011 at 6:58 pm in reply to: what aircraft can be considered over engineered? #2333564

Amiga500
Participant

Don’t know anything about the j-20 to say what it is built for.

Well… its size does indicate it is not a point defense fighter (a la MiG-21) for instance. 🙂

January 4, 2011 at 5:13 pm in reply to: Export orders J-20 vs PAK-FA??? #2333594

Amiga500
Participant

Unsubstantiated claims as the two have not met in combat. The results have been mixed when the Gripens met older Vipers.

I doubt the Gripen will have any edge in BVR.

I have seen information that a flight of Gripens can act as a fully functional independent bi-static radar system; single emitter, multiple receivers – capable of cross compilation of the data to potentially defeat even VLO adversaries. Of course, basic things like remotely guided launches and triangulation from multiple RWR can be accomplished quickly and automatically.

On 1v1, yes, a Gripen may hold no significant advantage over an F-16 apart from its better RCS. When it comes to groups, that small gap becomes a yawing chasm.

January 4, 2011 at 4:53 pm in reply to: "Super Hornet better than Harrier, Tornado and Typhoon" #2333622

Amiga500
Participant

It’s not just LM making the claims by the way, so unless the DOD/USAF/USMC/USN are all dubious sources, then your point doesn’t really hold water.

Because none of those parties have a vested interest in making sure Congress thinks the plane is worth funding… :rolleyes:

January 4, 2011 at 4:50 pm in reply to: "Super Hornet better than Harrier, Tornado and Typhoon" #2333647

Amiga500
Participant

Both the F-22 and F-35 are VLO, but nice try. Let’s see some links to LM saying otherwise.

HA HA HA HA HA.

I think that sums up the quality of some of your posts.

Seriously… like Lockheed are going to diss their own plane in public. I have it on good account from LM that putting your hand in the fire is good for you. :rolleyes:

January 4, 2011 at 4:43 pm in reply to: Export orders J-20 vs PAK-FA??? #2333651

Amiga500
Participant

well if that’s the case, switch it to under 50 million Pounds, and then the F-16E would qualify 😉

Sorry, but a -16E only compares to the Gripen in T/W ratio and instantaneous turn rates.

Due to sensor quality, radar signature and datalinks, 4 Gripens would whack 4 Vipers silly in a 4 v 4.

Despite the T/W disadvantage, it is still more than competitive with a F-16 in the furball due to its better L/D in the turn.
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